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Electric trolley operation without wires
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Author:  Les Beckman [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Electric trolley operation without wires
The new thread on the upcoming Issaquah, Washington trolley operation shows that the car will be operated with its traction motors but using a power cart either trailing or preceding the car. Thus electric operation, but without the wires. The Astoria Riverfront Trolley in Astoria, Oregon uses a similar system (including a "hospital quiet" muffler for the diesel generator). How many other electric car operations are there that use these diesel generator power carts, or perhaps draw power from a diesel-electric locomotive, besides these particular two?

Les
Author:  Andy Nold [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
I believe Denver's Platte Valley Trolley uses an onboard generator.
Author:  Frank Hicks [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
The Middletown & Hummelstown has run a single-truck open car towing a generator in recent years. The Charlotte Trolley operation used to; the M&H generator flat may have actually been bought from Charlotte but I can't recall for sure. There's the Trolley Museum of New York, which runs an ex-Johnstown streetcar that was rebuilt with an internal combustion engine by (I think?) Stone Mountain Scenic many years ago. There's also the Fort Lincoln Trolley in Mandan, ND which runs a single-trucker rebuilt with a gas engine, and the Southwest Missouri Electric Railway group in Webb City, MO operates a nice wooden double-trucker powered by a gas engine as well. And there's the Bay Creek Railway in Virginia which runs (ran?) an ex-Texas Electric car rebuilt with a diesel or gas engine.
Author:  Evan [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
More detail on the Johnstown trolley at TMNY: http://www.tmny.org/main.php?p=tmny0358
Author:  Les Beckman [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
Frank Hicks wrote:
The Middletown & Hummelstown has run a single-truck open car towing a generator in recent years. The Charlotte Trolley operation used to; the M&H generator flat may have actually been bought from Charlotte but I can't recall for sure. There's the Trolley Museum of New York, which runs an ex-Johnstown streetcar that was rebuilt with an internal combustion engine by (I think?) Stone Mountain Scenic many years ago. There's also the Fort Lincoln Trolley in Mandan, ND which runs a single-trucker rebuilt with a gas engine, and the Southwest Missouri Electric Railway group in Webb City, MO operates a nice wooden double-trucker powered by a gas engine as well. And there's the Bay Creek Railway in Virginia which runs (ran?) an ex-Texas Electric car rebuilt with a diesel or gas engine.


Frank -

I would think that internal combustion engines on the car wouldn't count. Do they use the cars traction motors? Does the car SOUND like a streetcar? The M&H car seems like it qualifies. Charlotte did too.

Les
Author:  Randy Hees [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
I think several lines have done early, demonstration runs with a cart and generator including SF Muni's F line along the Embarcadero, when running on the old SF Harbor Belt tracks (storing the car in the sewage plant when not in service)

Randy
Author:  Bob Davis [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
The Willamette Shore line running along the former "SP Red Electric" track south of Portland, Oregon used a towed generator.
The planned operation of British Columbia Electric interurban 1225 in the Surrey/Cloverdale area southeast of Vancouver BC will use a towed/pushed generator.
One ex-electric railway car that does not use traction motors is El Reno (Oklahoma) car 145. The body is retired Red Arrow/SEPTA "Strafford" car 165, but it's powered by a GMC 454 engine through (as I recall) a hydraulic system, making it more of a "doodlebug" than a trolley car.
Author:  Jim Vaitkunas [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
In 1971, the first demonstration railway of our Museum, the Como-Harriet Streetcar Line, located in southwest Minneapolis, used a towed wagon on which was mounted a gasoline {later diesel} engine connected to a 300-volt ex-trolley bus motor. The wire went up in 1974-75 and the "goat" was sent to another museum operation. I can't remember which one. IIRC, the Phoenix trolley folks now have the "goat."

Thanks!
Author:  Dave [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
[quote="Les Beckman] I would think that internal combustion engines on the car wouldn't count. Do they use the cars traction motors? Does the car SOUND like a streetcar? The M&H car seems like it qualifies. Charlotte did too.

Les[/quote]

There was a shortline in Georgia that built their own doodlebug from a single truck Birney body......wanted to replicate that in Savannah, never got the chance, can't recall exactly which RR. So, not all IC powered streetcars are historically inappropriate. I did bring the old Berksy to Savannah as a demonstration unit and backup for the W5, but that project went forward after I left.

I equipped the Charlotte car with Melbourne running gear because we could get it and it was the right size. Given the highly insulated and quiet generator trailer, I'm sure it sounded just right. We pulled that together through friends and family of the sponsoring organization, an entity better known for historic buildings.

I did run a little bit of interference between M&H and Charlotte Trolley, but wasn't directly involved in transferring the generator trailer up to PA. Pleased if that worked out well for all concerned.

dave
Author:  wesp [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
Dave,

Where is Berksy now?

Wesley
Author:  FVHRS [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
Bob Davis wrote:
The Willamette Shore line running along the former "SP Red Electric" track south of Portland, Oregon used a towed generator.
The planned operation of British Columbia Electric interurban 1225 in the Surrey/Cloverdale area southeast of Vancouver BC will use a towed/pushed generator.
One ex-electric railway car that does not use traction motors is El Reno (Oklahoma) car 145. The body is retired Red Arrow/SEPTA "Strafford" car 165, but it's powered by a GMC 454 engine through (as I recall) a hydraulic system, making it more of a "doodlebug" than a trolley car.


Yes, the FVHRS will be using a towed/pushed generator. The fine folks in Astoria gave us a set of plans for their cart and we had them modified to fit a larger genset. Wheel sets were from Noland.
Attached picture just shows the cart. It will go to Cummins in mid Sept. to have the genset attached. A rectifier will be included to change the AC to DC.
Just today we did a series of tests to see how it would go through switches. Passed. We will do some more once the completed cart returns.

Attachments:
IMGP1136 copy.JPG
IMGP1136 copy.JPG [ 47.36 KiB | Viewed 10367 times ]
Author:  RSwinnerton [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
I can confirm that the M&H generator did indeed come from Charlotte.
Author:  Randy Gustafson [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
The Savannah (GA) streetcar is a converted Melbourne W5 with two on-board (small) boat-sized conventional gensets powering ultracapacitors; the traction motors are equipped with regenerative braking that recovers the braking energy right back into the ultracaps. The genset only runs on demand if the ultracaps get low. The gensets are tucked inside the nose on both ends; they fit under and sideways.

It's very quiet. See the YouTube videos, and there is no trailer.

Structural and design work was done up here in Warren, the carbody was modified by Warren Railcar, the electrical work and much of the production was done in Altoona by EMS (Electric Motors & Supply). Those are the same guys that do traction motor rebuilding for NS.

The car is also equipped with an on-board wheelchair lift. It runs on the Savannah waterfront. One of the features is that is was designed to run 'native' 600V DC from overhead wire if Savannah ever gets it; the entire control system works after rectification from the gensets/ultracaps.

There was a lot of structural modification to the carbody including designing an entirely new steel frame, door system, etc. It wasn't intended as a preservation project, it was the only way to do the streetcar on the waterfront when the City and the residents were dead-set against overhead wire there and the Roundhouse Museum already had the Melbourne car.

http://connectonthedot.com/con2012/inde ... Itemid=483

The little gensets now run local biodiesel, so they promote the green energy angle for all it is worth.
Author:  Dave [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
wesp wrote:
Dave,

Where is Berksy now?

Wesley


Last I knew, in the roundhouse in Savannah. That's been several years ago, perhaps Randy can update us. We did a bit of modification....built a clerestory roof, finished the interior, worked on the mechanical and electrical stuff. Turned out a nice little car.

dave
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric trolley operation without wires
I am skittish of generator carts, especially over less-than-pristine rail, or reused freight railroad. I've done a lot of handling lightweight cars over regular railroad, and the combined experience of NARCOA is considerable. There's a higher risk of derailment simply because they are lightweight cars. They are more sensitive to track conditions and more likely to pick switches. Carts generally have more rigid suspensions and so are more subject to surfacing problems, resonance, etc. With no one on board the cart, you have no way of detecting these things. They tend to have "compromise" (not full width, not full flange) wheels, and that makes them more likely to discover wide gage and pick frogs. I'm generalizing, but this much is for sure: if the cart derails pulling it, that's merely embarrassing. If pushing, however, it can create a real mess.
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