Details obscured for respectful reasons.

I visited a rail preservation venue quite recently, and noticed a "parts source" spare piece of rolling stock sitting on a distant spur, still too close for cosmetic comfort. I know, from past visits, that the piece was acquired in derelict condition specifically to raid for a few specific parts for restoration of a better piece, and that the intention had been to scrap the remainder.

I remarked to a staffer/official, "So what's the deal? I thought that thing was going to be gone by now. Couldn't you call in a scrapper while the prices were still high?"

"We're not letting another scrapper on the property. We're waiting for cooler weather to do it ourselves."

"Huh? Why are you making more work for yourselves?"

"The last scrapper we brought in took the car he was supposed to, plus everything around it that wasn't nailed or welded down, and half the stuff that WAS welded down. Including some parts we're now going to have to fabricate. We're going to have to scrap it ourselves just to make sure we get the remaining parts we want intact."


Has anyone else run into this kind of problem? We already have experience with "projects" being tipped from "potentially restorable" to "hopeless basket case" just from drug-fiend copper thieves; has anyone run into this syndrome from the commercial end as well?

Sounds like you allowed the scrapman to have a field day with no supervision !
Or didnt clear the site of stuff you wanted and secure it ?

Mike Pannell

Some scrappers are better than others, but my experience is that as a group they're generally a useless, lying, theiving group. We have used several different ones over the years and have discovered a few things that make the experience more pleasant:

1) Monitor the scrapper constantly to avoid the "OOPS".
2) If I'm keeping parts I get them before the scrapper shows up on the property. Make it clear up front what you're keeping/taking.
3) If there are items you're keeping, that you can't get in advance and are relying on the scrapper to preserve -- See #1.
4) GET YOUR MONEY UP FRONT!!!!!!
5) Confine the scrapper to a limited work area, preferably away from stuff you don't want to "accidentaly" dissappear -- See #1
6) Make sure that there is someone on the scrapping crew that has a decent understanding of the English language.
7) Get a clear written understanding of who is responsible for any enviromental damage -- See #1.
8) Did I mention -- GET YOUR MONEY UP FRONT????

With all that said, if I'm taking an engine or coach down for parts I much prefer to do it myself. I know how it goes or is going to go back together and can slavage the items carefully. Doing it yourself is seldom as quick, but I would contend that the finished product may well be better.

ETA

Allegedly the scrapper came back "after hours". Like many/most places, this was a case where the location would have been difficult/impossible to secure fully and still function in. (This place has other security issues as well--part of why I don't want to ID them.) Even if the police had checked up on him, he would have had a writ of permission, or whatever.

I believe the case becomes that by the time you waste enough volunteer hours watching every last move of the scrappers, you might as well just get a scrap dumpster and do it yourself. As it turns out, they have access to a backhoe or small crane to help hasten the job.

Lost engines of Roanoke, someone was allowed in to pick up metal pieces, not necessiarily for scrap, but they picked up a side rod of one of the engines, who knows what else.

What I hope is any engine parts recovered.

Etalcos nailed it right on. Majority of scrappers are thieves. Not because of some emotional touchy feely thing about scrapping history, just plain the way it is. In rural areas often farmers have thought it easier to call in local scrappers to clean out a fence line of old equipment and junk. Most often the scrapper takes anything he can get away with. Like museums, most people are too busy to stay and supervise. Or when your not home they come back and get the stuff they were told to leave. Whether your a home owner or a museum you need to be careful who you invite in. Musuems have a harder time as they are normally open to the public and it is harder to control. Contractors can be notorious for theft of materials, parts ect. as well.

A museum I know of invited some free help to help combat flood damage a few years ago. Guys on parole and/or huber law. At least one of them on parole stole thousands of dollars worth of brass & bronze parts and stock. Some of it laying around, some of it after breaking into cars on the property. Most of it in broad daylight. They had permission to clean out cars full of irriplaceable parts and supplies and they did. The police were not initially informed of the theft and some museum members combed the local scrap yards and eventually found some of the lubercators, injectors, and other irreplaceable parts. Much of it is lost for good. Good news is at least one guy was caught and went back to prison so I hear. Seriously think twice who you invite into your "house", whether it be your actual house or the back part of your yards or shops.

Then there are railfans, but different topic for that one. Scrapping seems to attract a lot of riff raff. Some "sheeny's" die with a lot of money, though most of the time you wouldn't know it. They are not neccessariy evil, just know who your dealing with. Being surprised is your fault. That is the way it works. Obviously this is perspective, but has been my observation over time. Cheers, John.

ETA's advice is sound to which I add that there are a handful of reputable companies which specialize in dismantling railroad equipment and understand all of the secondary issues. They know damn well that if they are told, "These four boxcars" and they take the old Burro Crane also, not only is Amtrak not going to call them again but they are going to be writing another cheque and somebody may end up in gaol. They also understand that many of the parts may be worth far more as parts than as weight at the yard and are as a result far more careful.

As with almost any business decision the headache cost of a watching a contractor should be weighed against the headache cost of doing it yourself and both should be weighed against the expenses and revenues. I have had experience recently with the scrapping of a PV where the agreement called for a number of architectural details to be salvaged and instead the unsupervised crew from the local auto yard (I suspect they were paid by the pound) not only took them all but, until the troopers showed up, were helping themselves to parts of other cars. On the other hand, using a specialist firm recently resulted in a three way deal between the scrapper, a locomotive lessor and a museum which needed some of the parts.

Remember that it is a business decision and should be treated as one.

GME

PostScript: ETA's list is out of order. Point 4 should be Point 1. If the scrapper has problems with that he will almost certainly have greater problems with all of the other elements of the agreement!!!

When Cass Scenic scrapped their Alcos, we marked everything we wanted with orange paint. We had made a written offer with a commited price. All the scrapper had to do was remove those items and set them aside.

It was sickening to me how much good stuff was ruined, including all radiators from all four units; 2 S4s and 2 MRS1s. it cost San Fran Ventures a lot to have that crew on that job.

If a scrapper takes something they weren't meant to -- you SUE THEM. It's as simple as that.

You prepare for the lawsuit in advance by clearly demarcing what they are to take and what not. I.E. Orange paint on what's to be scrapped etc, video of the work area and yard at large to record what is present and what is orange.

If you're very clever, add a hidden camera overviewing the entire work site and taking slow-scan. "Hey, why did your truck come back the next day, park over here, and your same guys are zipping around in this area? Nothing is orange here and now many things are missing." That's a slam-dunk even in criminal court. In civil court we only have to prove "more likely than not". (which means we don't have to PROVE the employee acted with official authorization, so they are more at peril for the conduct of their employees.)

When I say "sue" I mean "actually sue", not "fantasize about suing". The latter does not count. Time is of the essence in this sort of thing, if you serve them process the day after the parts go missing, it's likely that the parts will magically return with an assertion they were taken "by honest error" and a scolding that you should ask nicely first. That's the smart move for the scrapper, since if you got everything back, you have little grounds for cash recovery, though you could still sue to get other relief, i.e. a restraining order. More likely than not you can haggle what you want outside of court and just carry in a settlement to the judge. Those aren't too expensive.

Note the differences between civil and criminal. The crime was in the stealing; that bell cannot be un-rung. Returning the stuff doesn't unwind the crime, however, it does take all the air out of the civil action. On the other hand, crimes require intent, so "honest error" is a defense in criminal court, but not in civil. In your civil deposition, he can "plead the fifth" but only for individual questions which would lead to confession of a crime (for which HE is guilty); so you get to play "minesweeper" with your questions, finding the outline of the crime by framing your questions. (of course he can mislead you by fifth-ing out on crimes he didn't actually do, so he might protect his rogue crew by pretending to be in on it, but oh, that'll look bad to the jury!) You can't plead the fifth to protect your friend, unless your friend is your wife.

"I like doing business with people with families. They have collateral." - Tuco from 'Breaking Bad' If you hire some scrapper who is "judgment proof" because he has no assets to take, that is very very foolish. Hire people with clean offices, company cars, nice trucks registered to the company, assets that you can send the sheriff in to take. If the guy has structured his corporate wrappers or debt to make that hard to do, DON'T HIRE HIM. Civil liability is what keeps companies and owners honest.

Of course the usual wanker(s) here will hassle me for "practicing law without a license". Come at me, bro. But seriously, you can homebrew the lawsuit prep, but when it comes to the heavy hitting, you'll want a professional. But don't say "Better call Saul!" Call 3 lawyers for whom what you need is just outside their field of practice, and ask them who they recommend. That's the best way I've found to bullseye on the best in town. For bonus points, check Westlaw etc. and figure out who the scrapper's lawyer is, and who usually beats him. Hire that guy.

Back in 1982 I was the site foreman for a scrapper overseeing the reclaiming of equipment at the railroad’s shop complex.

I was given several sheets of paper by the railroad that spelled out by car number and or a description of each piece to be scrapped. Also someone from the railroad would be assigned to us each day to answer any questions and oversee our work.

Each listing had a set of notes that called for any items to be saved. Some of the notes where easy to understand like a couple of hopper cars were noted “Scrap everything, Save nothing” or the note for a piece of track equipment that called for “UNBOLT and save anything painted RED”….

The problem came when the note for a derelict GP7 called for “Save prime mover and related components” (What did they consider related components to the prime mover?) or in the case of the other locomotive it called for “save cab and short hood” (It was a SW1….What short hood?) I went to our contact for that day to ask for clarification. Unable to give me clear instructions as to what exactly was to be saved on those two locomotives; it took several days’ worth of phone calls and faxes to get a clear understanding as what was to be saved. Seemed nobody wanted to make the decision as what to save and what went to junk.

There were other notes…

“Save everything below the floor of this car” – Ended up keeping the Truck Assemblies, Couplers, and Brake Components.

“Save the motor” – They wanted the Detroit power unit out of a small crane.

“Save all new parts” – They ended up sending out a guy from their shops to take off what he thought were the new parts, we scrapped the rest.

And my favorite…….

As noted on the listed for a Pick-up truck (I think it was a Dodge)… “Make disappear, it was junk when we got it new”

Tim W.

No. "Get the money up front" shouldn't be in there twice, it shouldn't be in there once.

You should be perfectly content to get a cheque mailed in 30 days. If you have the slightest, even the SLIGHTEST, vibe that you cannot have 100% confidence in that cheque showing up in your mail, then DO NOT HIRE THEM... duh!

Honestly, how do you find these scrappers? Do you go by the yard that's been there for 30 years and talk to them? Or do you throw a dart at the phone book or - God help you - search the web? Because a lot of services are being moved in on by scammers. For instance locksmiths, they are finding a LARGE number of listings on the web and in yellow pages are rogue operators with phone forwarders, they lack any real locksmith skills and simply drill out your lock. They often even list a street address for their business which is false. It's a jungle out there.

DOES YOUR MUSEUM EXTEND 30 DAYS CREDIT ON CASH SALES FOR TICKETS OR IN THE GIFT SHOP?

I think that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the transaction there. As a rule you do not hire a scrapper to do a job. You sell them a piece of equipment/pile of junk which it is up to them to remove or otherwise dispose of. You cannot put a security interest on it as it will cease to exist shortly after consummation of the transaction. If you are in the habit of extending credit on all of your sales or if you have an existing relationship with the firm go ahead and give the 30 days knowing that its at your risk.

Scrap metal is a COD business in part because prices are somewhat volatile and in part because it is a subset of the waste disposal industry.

Suppose I offer you $50K for the above pile of junk figuring that I am going to gross $50K plus the cost of dismantling plus a profit at the gate and I can pay you next month. You extend me the thirty days. Now despite the perception of my profession I am a fundamentally honest man and I have every intention of sending you the cheque next month. Between the time that I make the offer and arrive at the gate the price of heavy steel drops enough that I not only no longer gross enough to for my profit. but my gross does not cover both my cost of dismantling plus your $50K. The cheque that you are getting is not going to be the $50K which you expected and blowing off the debt to you is easier than dealing with unpaid wages et cetera.

Lets extend the question a tad and assume that your scrapper is my evil twin, TrainLiar. He comes in with a pick-up crew, collects his cash at the gate and then somehow ducks your phone calls and letters for the next year. Nice of you to offer the thirty days instead of taking the cash up front.

Everything else you said is sound.

GME

I agree there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the transaction here. Suppose I own five tri-level auto racks stored on a shortline across town from your railroad museum. I am being evicted and he won't let me scrap them on site. I want to move them smack in the middle of your railroad museum and scrap them there. Would you let me do that? Of course not. So why would my two baggage cars be any different? Sure I bought them from you but what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

The scrapper is NOT entitled to work on your site. We can change this sad game.

Either... turn it into piece work: buy dumpsters, write someone a check to cut it up into small enough chunks and set it in dumpsters, write someone a check to haul it to the mill, and then you take 100% of the proceeds FOB the scrap mill. I.E. you bear the risk of the shifting market. In fact you have the liberty to separate these events, and time the scrap delivery to suit the market.

Or... you sell the piece the same as you sell to a foamer, outright FOB your location, and they MUST move it or you get it back. And then, you negotiate separately the right to scrap it on your railroad somewhere. If you want to do that in the middle of your museum site, that is foolish. You wouldn't let me do that with my auto racks.


Any person who conducts himself in that manner is at best a well meaning amateur, and certainly not a professional business. Contending with the ups and downs of the scrap market is part and parcel of being in that market. This is comparable to a sportsbook that goes bust because it took bets it couldn't cover, or a broker who takes complex puts and shorts that it can't properly manage. It happens, but it shouldn't, and those who do it are fly-by-night by definition.

They're not fly by night becuase they're evil. They're fly by night because they're not prepared.

Seriously, I've read a very impassioned letter on the home page of a sportsbook site, which stiffed many of its winners. It said they were sorry and how they were trying to negotiate a merger with another sportsbook site that would get people partially paid. Yeah, that's gonna happen.


There is no difference between these two twins from our perspective, they are one and the same in every practical sense. The only difference is that TrainLiar is a more honest person, because he did not lie to himself!

I am not saying let the scrapper pay you in 30 days. I am saying don't hire one unless you trust them that much.
That may well add up to 'scrap it yourself'. If it does, it does.

I am certainly saying don't blindly accept low bidder. Or high bidder in this case. If you need further proof of that, watch a reality TV series called "Shipping Wars".

The fundimental difference between what ETA and Trainlawyer know about the scrap industry and what Mr. MacDowell knows is telling.

Trainlawyer's and ETA's experience is based on reality and how the scrap industry is as a whole. Trainlawyer and ETA speak with the grizzled voice of reality and experience.

Is it perfect? By no means, but it is reality that will guide those looking for advice.

What Mr. MacDowell complains about is that the scrap industry should conduct itself in a manner he sees fit. It's a free marketplace, sure, you can dictate the terms and conditions as you like, but it doesn't mean somebody has to buy your equipment to scrap.

Choosing to scrap something yourself because nobody lives up to your hypothetical and non-existent business model is not a wise, nor informed decision. While at times it may make sense to cut it up yourself and dumpsterize it, base your decision on reality and how the industry operates. Generate the pros and cons from reality, not theory.

For those seeking advice how to deal with scrappers, stick to how it is, not how it should be.

Does this observation make me more of a wanker?

I guess from this discussion I now understand why our museum has sent cars all the way to the other end of the line to be scrapped. Now we happen to have about 30+ miles of track at our disposal so there is no real need to do the scrapping in the yard where the rest of our iron would be in clear display to the scrappers. None the less I have to think that most museums should be able to haul a car away from their shop area which may otherwise be filled with the usual tie plates, couplers, trucks, spikes and any other piles of material that could otherwise easily be sent picked up by the scrapper. Plus even if you hire an honest scrapper you never really know how honest his crew is. I used to know a guy who lead a crew at a big breaking yard in NJ. I think he even said they cut up a few GG1's during his tenure there. At any rate he said the yard used to get all sorts of money from the state to hire ex-cons for rehabilitation work. So even though this guy may have worked for a reputable company, you never know who the scrapper is bringing on your property and if one of his employees sees enough easy to collect items he may be back after hours.