The recent news that the Kentucky Railway Museum has acquired a Reading GP7 got me thinking; most museums just ditch any piece, regardless of any sort of use that it may have, if it doesn't have regional significance. Prime example of throwing secularism to the wind; The Earl of Berkley on the Bluebell Railway in England.

None of the Earl/Dukedog 4-4-0s of the Great Western Railway operated in the Southern Region of British Railways in the post-nationalization era. But the Bluebell crews went for the Earl anyway, only because it was the best place for the Earl operate at the time. But then there is their BR 4MT 2-6-4T 80100. It wasn't even based on the Southern Region during its days in British Railways service. Consider that up until this year, 4MT 80151 served the line as a very reliable preformer, and you see another reason for acquiring an asset not of their geographical area; versatility.

In short, everything has its place. Just shunning a perfectly good piece of equipment because it from Railroad BC, not Railroad AD can't be a good excuse. Even if not kept, such assets could be traded to other organizations that may have a coach or locomotive you want for your museum.

Here's a logical example; Museum A has a locomotive from Railroad PRR. It isn't part of their geographical area, so the idea is to part it out and possibly put it on static display. Railroad B has a locomotive from Railroad NYSW. Would it not be benificial to Museum A and Railroad B to come to a trade agreement for for the locomotives from Railroad PRR and Railroad NYSW, which is in the geographical area of Museum A? At the same time, such a trade or cooperative agreement would promote growth of a "spider web" of sorts, linking museums together and getting rid of the old idea that "if it's not from around here, we don't want it". The two groups here in the US that come to mind in this way is the Tri-State Railway Historical Society and the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society, and that's because both groups have been partners on first the CNJ, and then the DL&W F3 project.

Any thoughts on the food provided? Maybe some grenade to throw (and I did bring my flak jacket this time!) down the rabbit hole? Does anyone agree with my assessment?

One issue you are avoiding: Railway museums CANNOT save everything. In my opinion more equipment has been saved today in musuems in the United States that ever can be preserved long term. Eventually much equipment will return to nature or be scrapped.

That's why a mission statement and adhering to that mission is very important. So if the mission statement includes a geographical area, equipment used outside that area should not be part of the collection of that museum. Otherwise someone at a Maine two-foot gauge museum might want to save a Big Boy.

Hi, Dylan:

In our museum, I'm definitely seeing a huge improvement in communication with other groups. Much of this has been a result of guys like myself reaching out to other groups as individual members/ board members, rather than as an official policy, however.

We went through years of unenlightened (so-called) leaders who saw other (railway) museums as the enemy, but clawed their way into power and fought off the heretics who felt working together is a good thing. Thankfully these characters are now in the ground (admittedly that's not a politically correct comment, but for the well being of preservation it's true).

These characters scrapped a perfectly sound, although fire- damaged coach, turning down two serious offers from other groups, because of their closed minds. These groups had the bucks to transport and restore what had been a beautiful coach. Alas, CN 4997, you are missed.

I still push continuously regarding this networking, and most of our board members have become aware of its huge benefits. We're not where I'd like to see by a long shot, but things are getting better all the time.

I believe we all need to work toward this goal at a personal level- make friendships, help each other whenever we can, and good things will grow.

RyPN is an incredible resource for this type of thing- we have such a great cross section of the industry here, from tourist railways and museums, to individual collectors and volunteers/ employees. Best of all, just about everybody is glad to jump in with help- and this is a great way that bond of friendship can be made and maintained.

Regarding equipment trades, we're seeing much more of this type of thing developing- despite transportation difficulties, stuff is being saved because people care about it and are talking to each other much more than in the past.

Disposing of a piece that doesn't fit your collections policy (whether based on era, geographical, technological, or other factors) is fine. HOW you dispose of the piece is a huge deal- as long as choices are made that are best for the artifact and the groups involved!

And above all, let's all continue to promote communication between our respective groups.

Steve Hunter

One of the things I've seen - and as a reminder.

State and national register guidelines regard 'historic' through different lenses. But at the state level, you have to pass through a minefield of whether a particular asset or artifact is 'significant', and usually that boundary is to the state involved. Even if a piece of equipment is nationally significant, it may not be significant in the state it's at. So, no restoration funding on that basis.

Which has left us, at various times, truly struggling to research trying to prove that a particular something ran somewhere, or an identical one did, or a third cousin that looked just like it. Sometimes its a stretch and sometimes it simply can't be done. Locomotive A qualifies for a grant, locomotive B does not.

Different states do interpret this differently. I've seen it tightly enforced, where if you couldn't prove that this particular car didn't run in this state, forget it. Other states say that, 'hey, it's typical or representative' and then they're good. But at any rate, it very much can be a justifiable reason for returning something to home turf or arranging a swap with somebody else.

The idea that mission statements, or even mission based acquisitions decisions are part of good business management for railroad museums is a relatively recent development. Of course, good business management for railroad museums is also kind of new........not to mention a defined "mission."

Most of this has been discussed on many previous threads. Please use the "search" feature.

RyPN is valuable, but only as valuable as we make it. It isn't as valuable as it was 5 years ago due to incroaching foam. TRAIN / ARM could take the lead by formalizing a swap and shop......but this is more commonly done F2F at conventions. Another reason to attend. Building the Dewey Brothers replica by collecting parts to make it from has reinforced for me the idea that none of us are more valuable than our network.

Yes, let's be more open to deaccessioning and trading......and more realistic in terms of what we NEED to keep and why. I believe we are all made stronger by doing a better job with less stuff than a lousy job with a lot of junk we can't maintain, and using it well to tell a good story that interests people who aren't us.

dave

This subject has been discussed many times before, but Fred Krock and Dave's comments about having more equipment than can be preserved, which I agree with, has led me to an unfortunate conclusion. We, as people involved in museum policy, can not easily cull our collections. We are too emotionally involved with the collection to make rational decisions. The only solution, for most museums, is to bring in an outsider to evaluate the the collection and recommend dispositions. The process, as I see it, would force the Trustees or other decision makers to accept the recommendations or provide very good reason for rejecting the recommendation on a specific piece of equipment.

Good reason does not include "old Joe gave it to us" or "we need one painted orange and one painted maroon" among justifications I have heard for retaining duplicate pieces.

This was attempted in 2008. A forum was created on the Train website. It was promoted in TRAINline and at a couple of the conventions.

Rick Burchett and John Bush were both strong supporters of the idea and encouraged the use of the site.

The result? Deafening silence. A few folks signed up, but not enough to make it go. The forum is still there, but hasn't been used since.

De-accessioning equipment is one of the most painful things for any railway museum. Invariably at least one member is in love with that relic out back with no protection from the weather that is slowly returning to nature without any possible funding for weather protection. That relic probably was acquired long before the museum had a mission statement or any plan for acquiring equipment. Very likely that relic does not fit the current mission statement, if any.

One thing that is improving is the club feeling for railway museum associations is gradually going away as the old members die off. Some museums were started as some variety of railfan club; the monthly slide shows were more important than the museum.

When I was responsible for it, operators and docents were absolutely forbidden to use the word club referring to the museum association. It was a "a non-profit educational association."

Dave said...

But that would take all the fun out of it... The point is not to find the answer, but to start random discussions, is it not?

Perhaps... to redirect this thread to where the title takes us... I really do wonder if we have full secularism in our railroad museums and tourist railroads. If they celebrate with Christmas trains does that make the organization semi-Christian? What about Easter Bunny egg hunts? Does restoring a chapel car make your group condone the values of that branch of church? How about the House of David... and the historic park train that is being restored... are those guys inadvertently promoting everyone to grow long beards and revive the odd cultish sect?

The content of the original post suggests the discussion might have been intended about regionalism or localism or xenophobia, but sometimes I conclude that comprehension beyond bisyllable vocabulary is not necessarily robust in Generation Z. No offense meant, but observation made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

That's exactly what I was trying so bring up but the best description, in my mind, was secularism. And while RYPN is an excellent source of communication between any number of organizations, communication can only do so much, but it is imperative to communicate to get anything done. To me, it seems akin to a conundrum, so I harken back to my original exemplar of the GWR "Earl" Class 4-4-0 Earl of Berkley on the Bluebell Railway in the UK. What I think we need to remember is that some of our precious artifacts have wheels, and as such can or have migrated from ancestral grounds.

Look at it from another perspective: why do many groups choose to define themselves with regionality rather than other criteria? Could we have a museum dedicated to the most complete cross section of 4-4-0s worldwide? How about one about tickets and punches? How about lunch counter meals in railroad diners in the Mississippi Valley?

I guess it relates to the origins of many groups that evolved from clubs of people that met with others nearby, and the relative proximity of all the founders led to a regional basis of interest. This was followed by GRAB A LOT OF STUFF. Only recently has the idea that financial realties of supporting undefined and therefore very broad quantities of stuff from everywhere and its use wasn't sustainable....so the idea that a defined mission could lead to a rational way to prioritize to use limited resources in a piurposeful manner was reluctantly adopted to whatever extent. Since almost everybody lived nearby, regionalism was a pretty agreeable and obvious path to follow. At least, that makes sense to me based on decades of working with several groups.

Nothing wrong with being the museum of railroading in the greater Paducah metropolitan area (or any other) if you actually run your organization based on that goal. Nothing wrong with choosing to limit your activities to the shortlines of Arkansas. Something IS wrong with having a mission of the shortlines of Arkansas while running Milwaukee bipolars with a Canadian National diesel electric powering it and hauling passengers on Maine Central gondolas in between.

I'd much rather se a mission based on marketing and narrowly defined and put to good use whether it be one based on geography or any other good basis for a story to tell.

dave

Here's another question. Are diesels like the GP7 really regional?

Back in the days of steam many railroads has distinctive locomotives. You can paint a Southern Pacific GS4 in Reading colors and you're not going to fool most railfans.

But what about a GP7 or an F unit? We've all seen the various F7's and F9's that started life for owner A, went through 3 or 4 other owners and are now at the opposite side of the country posing as a locomotive from a railroad they never saw in service.

Is that truly wrong? Granted, it is for the history of that particular locomotive. But how close is "close enough"? If Railroad B operated the same or nearly the same style of locomotive, are you deceiving the public?

(Let me clarify, I think the engine's true history should be documented and presented to the public. "Engine 4931 was originally owned by the PRR. It is the same class of locomotive owned by the Nowhere & Copperopolis, and has been painted in their paint scheme to help us portray, yadda, yadda, yadda..")

Should be be painted in the original colors and noted "Our railroad owned one just like this..."

Look at this another way. Imagine you visit a car museum in Florida. On display is a green Toyota. It's green, since that color was the best selling color in Miami. For whatever reason, there were no green Toyotas left, but there was a blue one from Detroit. The museum restored it lovingly, but changed the paint. Is this proper in a museum setting? Or should things always be restored to "Original condition"?

EXCELLENT discussion here. My 2 cents (your value may vary).

Yes, "we", as a group of railway museum, are maturing. It's great to see. We talk with one another. There is no "us vs. them" anymore - we are all fighting to serve our public the best way we know how.

Yes, our eyes were way bigger than our stomack. We ate too much. We can never restore and show the public all of our stuff as it used to be. One positive thought here - with today's railroads all ordering the same stuff, there is no need to acquire alot more stuff.

Yes, we should be trading stuff between us more often. Yes, it expensive to move stuff between museums. But, money overcomes all.

What we should be doing in defining what the PUBLIC needs and wants from our museum. Then, focus in on how best to present that to them.

Sure, it's ok to run the wheels off of a non-local car or locomotive, as long as it REPRESENTS what was historically operated in your public area.

Yes, it's OK to paint a GP or whatever for your local railroad history. We need to tell the story of interest for your PUBLIC, and, the original paint, or the second, third, etc paint on a piece of equipment isn't the story your PUBLIC wants to see - tell them about your local railroad history. However, let's not paint a GP7 into a local paint job if a local railroad didn't have a GP7.

As has been noted by several folks in this thread, there are occasions when a "non-native" piece of rolling stock may fit well with a museum operation, but there are other times when it makes no sense whatever. A number of museums have Canadian National electric commuter cars or the ubiquitous DL&W/E-L/NJT commuter cars. These examples work just fine if all you want to do is put butts in the seats, but if you are interpreting passenger travel in a southern state in the 1920's, not so much. The same goes for flatcars or gons fitted with seats -- maybe even more so.

As for locomotives, an industrial saddletanker from a Pennsylvania steel mill is just that, and it probably doesn't really do much to interpret steam railroading out west any more than a Southern Pacific 2-8-2 in Ohio would. But we all have to make compromises. There are southern shortline steam locomotives operating in New England, and some have been there longer than they operated in their original location. But an East Broad Top mikado just wouldn't look right on one of the Colorado narrow gauge lines. Geeps and F's are easy, since they were ubiquitous and it was only their paint schemes that set them apart.

Of course, if you are a tourist railroad, as opposed to a railroad museum, the rules are different. You use whatever power you can utilize to best advantage, and you use what's available to put butts in the seats and make a few bucks, There are very few operations that manage to do both well.

Again, we don't collect too much. We preserve too little.

I am skeptical of swapping a lot, because the cost of moving a piece is on the same order of magnitude as the cost to get it out of the weather. So there we have museum A with unit A in the rain, and museum B with unit B in the rain, both deteriorating. They swap, for $20,000 moving costs, and now we have museum A with unit B out in the rain, and museum B with unit A out in the rain. Does this help preservation? Not at all. The units are worse for wear if anything. In fact, the notion of swapping is itself borne out of the same collector's mentality which collected at the expense of preservation. It is a classic case of

You can't fix a problem with the way of thinking that created the problem.

Here is our opportunity, with not much interesting coming up for preservation right now (cookie cutter freight cars, very little in passenger equipment, GP40’s yawn), millennial lows in property costs and lifetime lows in interest rates, to switch our focus to preservation. If every rail museum directs its full assets to property acquisition in the next 3 years, and covering 5% of its collection every year for the next 20 years, we'll be sitting pretty in 23 years when GP40’s start getting scarce. That's all we have to do. It is achievable. And will require less money than we now spend on acquisition.

As far as regionalism, there's what's in your core collection: your Virginian, Maine Central, FEC, Frisco, SP, PE or Ann Arbor stuff.
Your supplemental collection: your representative great pieces: Big Boy, Swift reefer, Canadian steam engine, Rio Grande wood boxcar, etc.
And then there's the stuff not in your collection but you have for utility: the Army surplus locomotive, the ballast car of unknown lineage*, the tamper, your Lackawanna or Harriman coaches, the Australian or Italian streetcars, etc.

You have different collection and restoration policies for each.

* which needs reflectorization, by the way, as it is work equipment.