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| Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34007 |
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| Author: | boilerwash [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
Watching last nights lame episode of "Revolution" got me thinking about something. I know it goes against the grain of the whole "purist" view that seems embedded in rail preservation but why don't more smaller tourist lines rig up a steam loco in their collection to be pushed around in simulated operation? I know we all want to see them live and under pressure, but lets face it. Only a few outfits out there these days are EVER going to get the money for a new boiler on old #99. So why not just rig up a 44 tonner or other small diesel to look like a baggage car of something and push old #99 around for the public with air run through the whistle and so on. I know it's cliche' and all but the simple fact is Mr. and Mrs. America and their 2.5 kids don't know any difference other than "oh look, an old-timey choo choo!". But groups that do run steam have proven that just having a steamer on the point and in the advertising does make a difference. I mean it's been done with success before like Stone Mountain and the diesel baggage car shoving the General II around all those years. |
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| Author: | JimBoylan [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
It's also done with some versions of Thomas the "Bank" Engine. |
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| Author: | Chris Salmonson [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
It's amazing how much of the public think operating steam locomotives are phony simulations, let's not perpetuate that idea. |
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| Author: | Tower Operator [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
Its amazing how my mind instantly thought of the Stone Mountain Scenic Railroad! |
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| Author: | stephenpiwowarski [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
In reality, pushing around a cold locomotive and railway preservation are not directly connected at all. It all depends on what you want to teach your visitors. If you want them to learn about the technology, history, and operation of steam locomotives, then it is critical to have an operational steam locomotive. However, if your only goal is to have a ride which is not preservation oriented, then it seems that you could just forego the "fake" locomotive and have a nicely painted diesel do the work. Fooling the public, on the premise of selling more tickets would be irresponsible on the part of a museum whose purpose is to educate the public. I exclude the non-operational Thomas replicas in this case because their main purpose is to create an illusion of fantasy and entertainment rather than to provide an educational experience. Unlike Thomas or other non-operational locomotives, experiencing a real live steam locomotive can be both educational and entertaining with regard to steam power, history, and technology. In addition the concept that "only a few outfits out there these days are going to get the money" is perhaps true, but mostly due to the lack of a sustainable plan and the dedication to see the project through to fruition. In reality, you could say that any project that failed has failed due to lack of dedication simply because it would not have failed in the first place if people were still willing towards achieving their goal. Take Care, Stephen Piwowarski |
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| Author: | crij [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
The main reason those who have a bit of mechanical knowledge dissuade the groups they belong to from doing that is because, in a steam locomotive the steam is what carries the lubrication oil to the cylinder walls of both the valves and the drive pistons. To get around this without destroying the locomotive, the pistons & valves would have to be redesigned to lubricate without collecting in the cylinder or dripping down the track, otherwise the locomotive would have to be run with main connecting rod removed. Rich C. |
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| Author: | Scott [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
I remember an experience a while ago: 4449 was painted black for some BNSF employee specials. It ran north to BC to deliver the rebuilt boiler for the CP Hudson. In the consist was Doyle's F-unit (painted for the GN) but 4449 was definitely under steam and doing the work. I was trackside at an Amtrak stop along the route standing next to a non-railfan. After the consist blew by, he asked me "was that thing real?" He must have assumed that the F-unit was pushing the 4449 down the track. I assured him it was "real". |
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| Author: | dinwitty [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
The "steam" engine used in the Franke Park Zoo train in Ft Wayne Indiana 4-2-4 was gasoline driven, but looks and runs like a steam engine, but you still have all the lubrication checks to do etc etc. If you're going to tug a cold steamer around, nope you can't have the pistons flying back and forth without lubricating. Thats just like letting your car's oil run dry. You would have to disconnect the piston and/or the driving rod as well, if you want a nearly fully "looking" drive rod action. But a lot of the action is also mechanically lubricated or manually lubricated, you will never get around that. But thats just a part of the "thing" about running a steam engine, live or cold. The engineer/fireman running out after a stop and dressed up in the garb with fan onlookers watching the process of making the engine -work-. Then so maybe you put remote controls for the diesel in the steamer? Or maybe the diesel operates an air compressor and the engine runs on compressed air? Anyway you look at it I think your better with a live steamer if you have a real boiler. I think the TV show compromised to get a "working" steamer for the image of the show and be able to use a certain steam engine that wasn't steam ready, its a temporary situation. you may as well run diesel trips and make some bucks to pay for the steam restoration then run your steam. |
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| Author: | joe6167 [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
I've always wondered: what if you removed the actual piston from the piston rod, but left the piston rod on the crosshead, thus allowing you to leave the main rod on, so that when pushing the locomotive, from the outside, it would like like all the rods are there. |
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| Author: | G. W. Laepple [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
Do I remember correctly that a museum in Wisconsin features a steam locomotive, the tender of which disguises a 45-ton GE which pushes the engine around? |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
G. W. Laepple wrote: Do I remember correctly that a museum in Wisconsin features a steam locomotive, the tender of which disguises a 45-ton GE which pushes the engine around? That was the National Railway Museum-Green Bay, which has Sumter & Choctaw 2-8-2 102 being pushed around by a GE 45-tonner converted into a "tender".  
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| Author: | Dennis Storzek [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
joe6167 wrote: I've always wondered: what if you removed the actual piston from the piston rod, but left the piston rod on the crosshead, thus allowing you to leave the main rod on, so that when pushing the locomotive, from the outside, it would like like all the rods are there. You would need to fabricate some sort of bearing to carry the weight of the piston rods, since the cylinder packing gland doesn't qualify as a bearing. If one wants to go to all this work, why not just fix the engine? |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
Dennis Storzek wrote: If one wants to go to all this work, why not just fix the engine? Presumably because it's still simpler and cheaper than dealing with boilers and the attendant regulatory agencies and regulations. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
Teflon piston rings......or sintered nylon. Self lubricating, and make them thick enough radially to lift the piston off the bore. Geez.......not rocket surgery. Not that this is necessarily a good idea no matter how you solve only this one tiny mechanical problem. I recall a museum in Canada that had a relatively modern 0-6-0 converted to hydraulic drive with the diesel hydraulic pump stuck in the boiler. There was - maybe still is - a 0-6-0T dismembered hulk painted pink in Georgia that was about halfway through a similar process before the idea was abandoned. Theme parks and zoos can purchase very well designed steam outline train ride lokies made specifically for the purpose that are supported and have parts available off the shelf and come with none of the tricky issues that will arise when making a custom junkyard conversion. dave |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing Dead Steam Locos Around on Trains |
Scott wrote: I remember an experience a while ago: 4449 was painted black for some BNSF employee specials. It ran north to BC to deliver the rebuilt boiler for the CP Hudson. In the consist was Doyle's F-unit (painted for the GN) but 4449 was definitely under steam and doing the work. I was trackside at an Amtrak stop along the route standing next to a non-railfan. After the consist blew by, he asked me "was that thing real?" He must have assumed that the F-unit was pushing the 4449 down the track. I assured him it was "real". Scott, you seem to be combining a couple of different events. SP 4449 was painted black, and used on the BNSF employee trains. That was in 2000. I don't recall for certain if it made it north to Vancouver BC or not. There was usually (always?) a BNSF diesel in the consist as well. As far as I know, they never used Doyle's F unit. In 2001, the boiler was shipped north to Vancouver. It ran in a special train with Doyle's F unit, which had just recently been restored, and a couple of coaches. 4449 was not in the consist. http://www.okthepk.ca/dataCprSiding/art ... ress00.htm |
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