I was wondering - can anyone link me to pictures of streetcars calling at railroad stations? I'm wondering how the approach to the train station worked. Did they stop in the street outside? Did they come into the station property? Did they make you walk a couple blocks?

Check out Stilgoe's METROPOLITAN CORRIDOR. I think I recall that covered....

dave

I think generally streetcar line stops were directly out in front of the train station. In some cases (NYC and some of the Chicago stations), streetcar lines ran right past the railroad stations so it was easy. Some examples of other arrangements:

Streetcar loop up to the entrance of Washington Union Station: http://www.davesrailpix.com/dct/htm/ehd013.htm

Elevated, covered trolley terminal in the Hoboken station: http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/PSNJ_Hoboken-Jersey_City_Elevated

Elevated streetcar line past the entrance to Chicago Central Station: http://www.irm.org/gallery/CSL144/aaj

Postcards of various loop arrangements at Transbay Terminal and the Ferry Building in San Francisco: http://www.trainweb.org/trolleypostcards/tpc_transbay.htm

From the Trolley Museum of New York collection:

Trolleys at the New Haven (CT) Station:


Manhattan Crosstown trolley at W 23rd St Ferry terminal:

At the great Buffalo Central Terminal the streetcars stopped two blocks away at the bottom of a sloping driveway. Why?

Despite a full streetcar terminal and loop built into the depot, the power brokers who controlled the taxi company blocked the streetcar system from ever being convenient to the station.

Rob

It depends on so many factors, that I am sure there is historical precedent for any arrangement you could imagine. While typically the streetcars would be out in the street in front of the depot, there are many examples where the streetcar/interurban system was owned by the same company and would either come on to the property or would even serve the depot on the railroad side, often with their tracks between the depot and the mainline tracks.

Southern Pacific shared depot facilities with the Pacific Electric in several locations such as North Hollywood, San Bernardino, El Monte, Covina, La Vern, etc... These stations usually had separate tracks for each with the electric trains located on the tracks closest to the depot. This was mostly interurban service, but I can't say for certain that local services did not also call at these depots.

Western Pacific and Sacramento Northern (an interurban of course) shared tracks at Marysville, which of course meant that the domes of the California Zephyr were under wire during its first years. Didn't local cars call there?


http://www.bayarearailfan.org/photogal/displayimage.php?album=1&pid=348#top_display_media

Larger terminals usually had their own trolley loops on the property to bring passengers closer to ticketing and waiting halls. SP's 16th Street Station in Oakland had a trolley loop out front, as did the Transbay Terminal in San Francisco.

As for the planning of the WRM campus, which I suspect this is about, It would be a good idea to make the place pleasant and comfortable for pedestrians without requiring the use of streetcars, which may not be running all the time. Having to wait for a streetcar to get from one end of the campus to another might cause frustration unless the cars will be running on short headways. I know waiting more than 5 minutes for a streetcar drives me nuts. I suppose that's one of the reasons why I ride my bike instead of Muni.

Twin City Rapid Transit served the Union Stations in both St. Paul and Minneapolis. Here's a photo of a couple of TCRT "standard" cars in front of the Union Station in Minneapolis. While the predominant railroad was the Great Northern, several other roads called at the station including C&NW, CB&Q, NP, M&StL and CGW. The Milwaukee Road's Minneapolis station was a few blocks away. The Rock Island served that station. TCRT streetcars went by that station as well.

My take is that many streetcar lines, especially in the smaller cities and towns, served all the railroad stations in town given that passengers getting on/off the trains were a big part of their business. Many smaller towns didn't have taxis or the horse-drawn equivalent for passengers, so the streetcar were a great convenience.

Here's photo of a TCRT PCC car next to the Milwaukee Road's Minneapolis depot. And how about TCRT gate car No. 1207 that met the Dan Patch Line's gas electric in south Minneapolis.

Thanks!

Hagerstown & Frederick 171 at the "joint" H&F/Western Md. station at Thurmont, Md., May 18, 1941, as part of a joint outing with a bunch of railfans. Photographer unknown, possibly Leonard Rice; from Lee Rogers collection.

The H&F cam in from the far left rear into the station; this is also an interchange track between the two lines, as the H&F also hauled freight as well. The tracks to the right are the WM passing siding and the WM main.

Having written about and researched rail stations across the nation, I do believe it's completely safe to say if there was a way to do it (or not do it), it probably has a prototype or example somewhere. Just right off the top of my head, I can point to, in my own city, two stations where the trolleys stopped on the street right out in front of the headhouse, one where the trolleys went on bridges on the two streets that crossed either end of the main station, another where you had to walk a block or three, another up to the street level and over a block.....

In my hometown, the interurban terminal was two short blocks from the PRR station and next to the tracks.

One has to remember that in most instances an "interface" between these modes of traffic were complementary to one another, though in rare instances they were outright competition.

In San Diego, the 1915 ATSF depot is located near the waterfront, with the tracks on the west side of the depot, roughly parallel to the waterfront, headed north to Los Angeles. The downtown area is to the east of the depot. The streetcar company, owned by John D. Spreckels, had lines running east from the depot into town. The south side of the depot, at the foot of "D" street (now Broadway) had an arched portico where the west bound streetcars stopped. Immediately after the portico, the tracks made a 180 loop and headed back east up "D."

Spreckels also owned the SD&AE, which had trackage rights to the depot until passenger service ended in 1951. The depot still stands, and is used by Amtrak and the Coaster (commuter rail), but the streetcar portico was torn down many years ago. The baggage building at the north end of the depot is now a contemporary art museum, somewhat of an abomination to local rail fans.

I'm sure I have a book with some photos I'll try to dig up and scan.

Now, the San Diego Trolley tracks run parallel to the train tracks on the west side of the depot. Trolleys stop between the depot and the train tracks, so Amtrak and Coaster passengers need to keep a sharp eye out for trolleys.

Instead of violating a copyright, here's a link to a photo of San Diego's ATSF depot:

http://www.sandiegohistory.org/prints/r ... ars-4400-1

That site has a number of photos of the depot, along with thousands of others of San Diego history.

The question brought a number of arrangements to mind: Newark NJ where the streetcars came into a subway terminal under Penn Station, Los Angeles Union Station, which had a loop on the north side for LA Ry. narrow gauge cars and the Pacific Electric Northern District line running on Aliso St. on the south side. Note that LAUS/LAUPT went into service when the streetcar business was on the downward trend. Today we have the Gold Line light rail trains coming in parallel to the Amtrak/Metrolink tracks and the Red Line subway underneath ("electric trains in the basement"). And fans of old time cartoon films will remember "The Toonerville Trolley That Meets All the Trains."

Frank - As I recall, this elevated structure over the Illinois Central led to the Soldier Field/Field Museum complex in Chicago. I don't recall that the line had a stop there at the IC's Central Station. I only rode the line one time (for the 1953 Prep Bowl game at Soldier Field so perhaps I'm wrong). One thing I DO recall, is that the Big Pullman (like number 144 in the picture) was absolutely jammed to the gills with fans from the game after it ended. I'm sure that IRM keeps the crowds in number 144 better controlled these days.

Surely a number of the many Chicago streetcar lines went by railroad passenger depots. Hopefully there are a few photos of these in existance.

Les

At Baltimore, Maryland's Penn Station, the Light Rail Vehicles have taken over the railroad track and platform nearest to the station building. There is an overhead concourse for train passengers. At that city's Camden station, the Light Rail and railroad tracks closest to each other share a high level train platform, but the Light Rail track is higher so its passengers can use the car steps as if it was a low level platform. In olden days, the trolleys stopped in the streets next to the station buildings.

Cincinnati had a streetcar loop direct into the building. The Cincinnati depot was remote from downtown. There was zero foot traffic at the station. Contrast that to other stations that were directly downtown, and thus the front door opens directly to the street and busy streetcar lines.