Several times over the last 25 years I have sat down with advocates in the rail heritage movement and we have talked about how can young people get active employment dealing with railroads and/or rail history. It is easy to find opportunities to volunteer, but getting gainful emplyment is something else.

Maybe some of you see positions open more often, but I do not usually hear of many. I would like to hear your thoughts, both on where positions may open up and how do people interested find out about them.

To prove that they sometimes do exist, I will put one out which we currently have. Stone Consulting is looking for a person with a Civil Engineering degree who is either an E.I.T. or has gotten their PE. To get a feel of the kinds of projects this position may get involved in, you can go to our web site.

There must be other positions open. Do we collectively need to do a better job of helping people find these positions?

Gary Landrio, VP Rail Operations

Stone Consulting & Design
garylandrio@stoneconsulting.com

I donÂ’t believe that there are young people, or anybody for that matter, who are interested in steam railroading, and want to have a career in it that are going begging. If there are, they donÂ’t want a job very bad.

Last fall, we ran the following ad on the Rypn Interchange:

The Strasburg Rail Road is accepting applications in the mechanical department, for machinist, mechanic, welder, electrician, carpenter, cabinet maker, or painter. Combinations of the above skills a plus. Must be a self-starting team player who can work from verbal instructions, sketches, or blueprints. Salary commensurate with experience. Call 717-687-8421 for an application.

This ad was read over 300 times, and I would assume that some of those readers informed their friends about it. The ad resulted in three calls to the Rail Road for applications. ThatÂ’s it, three. Of those, one was never returned, and one person was no longer interested when we called.

After that turned out to be a dry well, we ran the same ad in the local paper. The unemployment rate in Lancaster County was at about 3% then, but we still received over 75 applications! From that there were about 10 that we interviewed, and we hired an excellent machinist, and an excellent carpenter/painter, nether of who had any particular interest in steam railroading. We considered hiring more from that group, but held back to avoid too many new faces at once. Right now, we feel that we are fully staffed.

The reasons that I can imagine to be behind this are as follows:
1. Everyone who is interested in working on this equipment already is affiliated with an organization that satisfies their level of interest.

2. Those who donÂ’t fit into the above category donÂ’t have the desire necessary to justify (to themselves) relocating to our area.

3. Among people interested in a steam railroading career, there is something about the Strasburg Rail Road that makes it unattractive.

4. Among people interested in a steam railroading career, there is a wide spread lack of the basic skills that are needed, causing potential applicants to never try.

Everyone in the industry has complained about the lack of young people interested in this industry. Possibly this comes from being a generation too far away from the real thing. I got a lot of encouragement from my mother who traveled widely by train in the ‘30’s, and 40’s. Other possibilities are modern railroad’s increasing invisibility, and inaccessibility, which do nothing to encourage younger people. It could be that they just aren’t interested in a hard, hot, dirty, relatively low paying job, when there is serious money to be made elsewhere.

In general, IÂ’d say that we might get six unsolicited applications per year from people wanting to work here because of what we are. You would think it would be more, but it isnÂ’t.


Strasburg Rail Road
kelly@strasburgrailroad.com

I believe the problem may be attributed to the following:

1) The typical steam tourist operation cannot (or will not) pay what a skilled young person is worth, nor do they provide sufficient benefits to be attractive enough to a potential employee;
2) Many operations "suffocate" young, new employees due to the highly egotistical nature of the head mechanics of these operations and the cliquish company culture in which they folks exist (read: "bull****"); they do not encourage growth, learning and dialogue but instead demand (and expect) complete allegiance to the boss without first earning their trust. Usually the least qualified folks with the worst people skills and who are the bosses pets (and are not liked by the others) climb the promotion ladder at these places. Many times the boss does not want to share his/her "sacred mechanical knowledge" with others out of fear of losing his/her perceived power base with the other employees and others in his field of endeavor. That is truly sad because it says that individuals are more interested in selfish motivations in the "here and now" and will take steam knowledge to the grave with them without passing it along to the next generation.

With that said, who cannot blame young people for not wanting to get involved in our field?

> I donÂ’t believe that there are young people,
> or anybody for that matter, who are
> interested in steam railroading, and want to
> have a career in it that are going begging.
> If there are, they donÂ’t want a job very
> bad.

> Last fall, we ran the following ad on the
> Rypn Interchange:

> The Strasburg Rail Road is accepting
> applications in the mechanical department,
> for machinist, mechanic, welder,
> electrician, carpenter, cabinet maker, or
> painter. Combinations of the above skills a
> plus. Must be a self-starting team player
> who can work from verbal instructions,
> sketches, or blueprints. Salary commensurate
> with experience. Call 717-687-8421 for an
> application.

> This ad was read over 300 times, and I would
> assume that some of those readers informed
> their friends about it. The ad resulted in
> three calls to the Rail Road for
> applications. ThatÂ’s it, three. Of those,
> one was never returned, and one person was
> no longer interested when we called.

> After that turned out to be a dry well, we
> ran the same ad in the local paper. The
> unemployment rate in Lancaster County was at
> about 3% then, but we still received over 75
> applications! From that there were about 10
> that we interviewed, and we hired an
> excellent machinist, and an excellent
> carpenter/painter, nether of who had any
> particular interest in steam railroading. We
> considered hiring more from that group, but
> held back to avoid too many new faces at
> once. Right now, we feel that we are fully
> staffed.

> The reasons that I can imagine to be behind
> this are as follows:
> 1. Everyone who is interested in working on
> this equipment already is affiliated with an
> organization that satisfies their level of
> interest.

> 2. Those who donÂ’t fit into the above
> category donÂ’t have the desire necessary to
> justify (to themselves) relocating to our
> area.

> 3. Among people interested in a steam
> railroading career, there is something about
> the Strasburg Rail Road that makes it
> unattractive.

> 4. Among people interested in a steam
> railroading career, there is a wide spread
> lack of the basic skills that are needed,
> causing potential applicants to never try.

> Everyone in the industry has complained
> about the lack of young people interested in
> this industry. Possibly this comes from
> being a generation too far away from the
> real thing. I got a lot of encouragement
> from my mother who traveled widely by train
> in the ‘30’s, and 40’s. Other possibilities
> are modern railroadÂ’s increasing
> invisibility, and inaccessibility, which do
> nothing to encourage younger people. It
> could be that they just arenÂ’t interested in
> a hard, hot, dirty, relatively low paying
> job, when there is serious money to be made
> elsewhere.

> In general, IÂ’d say that we might get six
> unsolicited applications per year from
> people wanting to work here because of what
> we are. You would think it would be more,
> but it isnÂ’t.

> I believe the problem may be attributed to
> the following:

> 1) The typical steam tourist operation
> cannot (or will not) pay what a skilled
> young person is worth, nor do they provide
> sufficient benefits to be attractive enough
> to a potential employee;
> 2) Many operations "suffocate"
> young, new employees due to the highly
> egotistical nature of the head mechanics of
> these operations and the cliquish company
> culture in which they folks exist (read:
> "bull****"); they do not encourage
> growth, learning and dialogue but instead
> demand (and expect) complete allegiance to
> the boss without first earning their trust.
> Usually the least qualified folks with the
> worst people skills and who are the bosses
> pets (and are not liked by the others) climb
> the promotion ladder at these places. Many
> times the boss does not want to share
> his/her "sacred mechanical
> knowledge" with others out of fear of
> losing his/her perceived power base with the
> other employees and others in his field of
> endeavor. That is truly sad because it says
> that individuals are more interested in
> selfish motivations in the "here and
> now" and will take steam knowledge to
> the grave with them without passing it along
> to the next generation.

> With that said, who cannot blame young
> people for not wanting to get involved in
> our field?

There is some truth in what you say, but it also reveals part of the problem; that being unreasonable expectations on the part of some of the young people.

If you expect to begin, even with some skills, at
$60k-$70 per year, that's probably not realistic.

If you expect to be the CMO or president the first day, or to have these people consult with you on all business/operational decisions, that's not realistic.

If you think you are going to institute radical changes on your first day, or become the engineer on the first day or whatever, that's not realistic.

If you think the "old heads" are going to instantly accept you and your ideas, that's not realistic. Respect and trust are not an entitlement, and certainly not a one-way entitlement.

Some of the bad things you describe are reality not just in the railroad heritage field, but in all fields of endeavor. Those who cannot adapt to things that don't meet or exceed their expectations (realistic or not) are going to be
very unhappy, and they are going to blame that unhappiness on everyone but themselves.

Life isn't fair. Get over it.

I have been interested in employment in the railway preservation field, but I always thought that there would be too many others competing for the limited number of openings, so I never pursued it. Over the past dozen years working with several rail groups, tourist railroads, short lines and a class one I have educated myself in the ways of railroading, rail preservation and restoration, and through my work with the Tod Engine have learned alot about everything else. There is nothing that will make you learn faster than having a 300 ton machine to dismantle, and not having the first clue of what to do!

I would most certainly rather be grimy and dirty working under a 2-8-0 rather than sitting in an AC4400 at 50 mph in air conditioned comfort, but the perception I had was that I would either have to be "in the clique" to get in the door at a place like Strasburg or would have to wait umpteen years until an opening became available, and would have to compete against many others to get the job. Its interesting to find out that the competition amongst fellow rail preservationists for preservation employment isn't as keen as I thought.

todengine@woh.rr.com

> but the perception I
> had was that I would either have to be
> "in the clique" to get in the door
> at a place like Strasburg or would have to
> wait umpteen years until an opening became
> available, and would have to compete against
> many others to get the job.

In my experience, a great deal of the stories about "cliques" are overblown and/or manufactured. They usually originate with people who couldn't/wouldn't follow intructions and do the work, or who thought they were being hired to set policy or to take over.

What some people sneer at as cliques are actually closely-knit, hard working teams who work together well and cooperatively, who never lose sight of the fact that they are there to do the work assigned to them, not to implement a personal agenda or reorder the priorities, and who produce a quality, long-lasting, successful product. Strasburg certainly falls into that category, as do a number of others I could mention.

These places are not democracies and they are not railroad clubs. They are businesses and workplaces first and foremost.

That said, I do not deny that cliques exist. In my experience you will find far more of that sort of thing at the leadership levels of some groups. These tend to be the ones that are closed societies....the ones where the membership never has a voice in anything; where the officers elect the directors and the directors appoint the officers, so all of the officers are the directors and vice-versa so the membership never even has a vote. Board meetings are closed to the membership. The membership is expected to pay dues, help fund-raise, provide grunt labor when it's needed, and otherwise stay out of the hair of the elite. THAT is a clique. You may also find it at groups that tend to be in a constant state of turmoil and unrest and who never seem to able to get anything done.

There are some sharp, hard-working young people already in the preservation industry. They are working their way up through the ranks, learning the many things that will equip them to assume positions of responsibility in the future. You don't often hear too much out of them or about them, because they are too busy working, learning their crafts and polishing their skills and learning all they can.

Kelly, I might assume Strasburg could intimidate younger and less experienced potential employees due to its very professional and high quality operation. Hell, I'd think twice about working with Linn looking over my shoulder and I am his vintage!

Can we talk a bit about internships? I ran a program (without the consent of management) in Savannah last summer and it was (by my expectations) successful. Out of 6 college kids, we retained 2 who look as if they stand to be future full time employees.

I think we need to grab them before they are out of school to give them some real world exposure and see what their real skills and levels of commitment might be. Better they find out in time to reallocate their majors if they learn it isn't for them after all.

Another consideration is what we post in our ads - we can't expect the average 19 year old to have had much experience. Requiring it will easily weed them out. Degrees are also generally unnecessary as they merely indicate ones aptitude for being a student. I know many great academics who are hopelessly unable to even change the light bulbs in their desk lamps.

Maybe the really stupid way I got my interns isn't so stupid after all - just invited aybody interested to come down and go to work. No resume's, no references, just come down and try out. Retaining one third with no selection process is a better rate of retention than many rigourous selection processes provide.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> I donÂ’t believe that there are young people,
> or anybody for that matter, who are
> interested in steam railroading, and want to
> have a career in it that are going begging.
> If there are, they donÂ’t want a job very
> bad.

(snip)

> In general, IÂ’d say that we might get six
> unsolicited applications per year from
> people wanting to work here because of what
> we are. You would think it would be more,
> but it isnÂ’t.

Y'all should have just gotten an unsolicited email from me asking about operating positions. I'd be plenty willing to do grunt work in the shop, too, so long as I could learn from somebody like Linn Moedinger. If that job (or any other) is still open, PLEASE email me off-list!

I've been hunting for a job in the industry for over a year and a half now. I even ran an ad in TRAINS advertising my availability. I didn't see the SRR's ad you mentioned, otherwise I would have jumped on it. I hadn't really considered the SRR previously because I figured it'd be tough to get on there. The email I sent y'all earlier today was a "what the heck" effort.

As for money, all I ask from any job is a living wage. I can't take a job working part-time for minimum wage because that wouldn't pay the rent, much less utilities and groceries. I don't expect to start *any* job at $50K a year. About half that, however, is pretty much the minimum a person can live on these days.


mconrad@compuzone.net

> Kelly, I might assume Strasburg could
> intimidate younger and less experienced
> potential employees due to its very
> professional and high quality operation.
> Hell, I'd think twice about working with
> Linn looking over my shoulder and I am his
> vintage!

I'd jump at the chance!

> Can we talk a bit about internships? I ran a
> program (without the consent of management)
> in Savannah last summer and it was (by my
> expectations) successful. Out of 6 college
> kids, we retained 2 who look as if they
> stand to be future full time employees.

You got any positions suitible for a 33-year-old down there, Dave? It'd have to pay enough for me to move, Savannah is a bit out of commuter range from Winnsboro!


mconrad@compuzone.net

> I'd jump at the chance!

> You got any positions suitible for a
> 33-year-old down there, Dave? It'd have to
> pay enough for me to move, Savannah is a bit
> out of commuter range from Winnsboro!

Matt - i am not in a managerial position, just a hired brain and ooccasional wrench. Send a resume and cover letter to Ralph Justen at Roundhouse Railroad Museum, 601 West Harris St, Savannah GA 31401. I believe there are some positions going to be developing soon, but it isn't all rolling stock stuff. Willingness to do building work and gift shop sales and whatever is required for the crisis du jour is.

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

> I believe the problem may be attributed to
> the following:

> 1) The typical steam tourist operation
> cannot (or will not) pay what a skilled
> young person is worth, nor do they provide
> sufficient benefits to be attractive enough
> to a potential employee;
> 2) Many operations "suffocate"
> young, new employees due to the highly
> egotistical nature of the head mechanics of
> these operations and the cliquish company
> culture in which they folks exist (read:
> "bull****"); they do not encourage
> growth, learning and dialogue but instead
> demand (and expect) complete allegiance to
> the boss without first earning their trust.
> Usually the least qualified folks with the
> worst people skills and who are the bosses
> pets (and are not liked by the others) climb
> the promotion ladder at these places. Many
> times the boss does not want to share
> his/her "sacred mechanical
> knowledge" with others out of fear of
> losing his/her perceived power base with the
> other employees and others in his field of
> endeavor. That is truly sad because it says
> that individuals are more interested in
> selfish motivations in the "here and
> now" and will take steam knowledge to
> the grave with them without passing it along
> to the next generation.

I have read this entire thread several times and have given it a lot of thought. I can remember having similar thoughts when I was first trying to get involved with steam. The best advice I ever received was from Charlie Barrett, our senior engineer on the Morris County Central. I was considering leaving college to take a job (entry level, low wages) at the Valley RR. He told me "Kid, stay in school; learn everything you can about working with metal ( I was an Industrial Arts Major specializing in Metalworking). These old beasts are nothing but hunks of iron. Learn the right way to machine, weld, whatever: when you come out you'll be those guys boss." I actually listened to Charlie, and for 12 years have run the Huckleberry RR. But it wasn't easy or automatic. I had a low tolerance for politics; when internal fighting got to me I sought refuge in building and operating live steam locomotives. I was able to work for an engineering firm that made pressure vessels, then as a boilermaker in a chemical plant, then for a short-line railroad. All these experiences help me perform my current duties.

Now I am in a position where I hire and train young employees. I try to remember what it was like to be young; it isn't easy. Times are different. If an "old head" yelled at me I listened to what he said and tried to learn from it. I didn't pout and think "He doesn't like me."
Now I try to teach everyone who works for me as much as I can, but not everyone listens and understands. But there are some Basics everyone working around railroad equipment needs to know.

Basic Lesson Number 1. THIS STUFF CAN KILL YOU! OR A CUSTOMER, OR A CO-WORKER. You need to look out for yourself, and everyone around you. Railroad equipment can kill or maim, and it won't feel a thing.

What I look for in an employee is the ability to grasp this simple fact. That and basic responsibilty. Anything else I can teach them, but if they can't understand Basic Lesson Number 1, I don't need them around. Sorry if that makes me seem hard-nosed, but that's the way I see things.

Martyhuck@aol.com

We saw a similar experience to the first part. Unfortunately in the engineering field we also experienced the same responce to newspaper ads. An additional problem that we see is the limitation of families wanting to move. Although those of us in Warren, PA think that we have found a nice place to live and raise a family. Many spouses find this area too rural. When they hear that we are 30 miles from a major shopping mall, the phone goes dead. The reality is that we can still get there in 40 minutes, which is not much longer than a major suburban drive.

The other factor is that engineers quite often expect $50,000 to $70,000 per year. Even out of collage $30,000 is common to start. When your customers are shortlines, tourist railroads and museums you can not charge the fees that big city firms charge. Therefore you also can not pay "the going rate". Our secret is that the cost of living in this rural area is also lower. So even at the lower wages we do all right.

As an example the average house costs $65,000 here. While near Denver it is over $250,000. That equates to about $1,000 per month less in mortgage payment alone. So even when we find someone who might be interested we seldom get to explain the whole story. Their second question is how much would you pay and the phone goes dead.

Stone Consulting & Design
garylandrio@stoneconsulting.com

Devil's advocate guys, but why is residence in Warren important? You are ALWAYS on the road going to a client site somewhere so maybe telecommuting and travel to Warren for occasional meetings could solve a problem or two regarding attracting talent. Travel is travel after all.........

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I wanted to clarify my rem,arks and say that they are not reflective of the Strasburg which is a top-notch operation in my book. They are models on how to run a railroad correctly. My experience has been on a steam tourist line in the southwest.

> Kelly, I might assume Strasburg could
> intimidate younger and less experienced
> potential employees due to its very
> professional and high quality operation.
> Hell, I'd think twice about working with
> Linn looking over my shoulder and I am his
> vintage!

> Can we talk a bit about internships? I ran a
> program (without the consent of management)
> in Savannah last summer and it was (by my
> expectations) successful. Out of 6 college
> kids, we retained 2 who look as if they
> stand to be future full time employees.

> I think we need to grab them before they are
> out of school to give them some real world
> exposure and see what their real skills and
> levels of commitment might be. Better they
> find out in time to reallocate their majors
> if they learn it isn't for them after all.

> Another consideration is what we post in our
> ads - we can't expect the average 19 year
> old to have had much experience. Requiring
> it will easily weed them out. Degrees are
> also generally unnecessary as they merely
> indicate ones aptitude for being a student.
> I know many great academics who are
> hopelessly unable to even change the light
> bulbs in their desk lamps.

> Maybe the really stupid way I got my interns
> isn't so stupid after all - just invited
> aybody interested to come down and go to
> work. No resume's, no references, just come
> down and try out. Retaining one third with
> no selection process is a better rate of
> retention than many rigourous selection
> processes provide.

> Dave

Dave you ask a good question. Our work falls in two basic categories, consulting and engineering. You are correct that the consulting can be handled and is handled remotely by field trips and email and file transfers. Usually just a couple of site visits can cover a project and then the Project Manager goes back to their computer and puts together a report. Sure they need to interface with the various resourses in our office, but for the most part they can work on their own.

The engineering work is primarily within 300 miles of our Warren office. Here the Engineer does need to interface one-on-one with CAD designers and others in our office. And although some of this can and is done while they are out of the office. Nothing yet is better than sitting down around a table, looking at the plans and specifications and as a team coming up with the best solutions. This process loses something when this in person contact is missing.

Stone Consulting & Design
garylandrio@stoneconsulting.com