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C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34337		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mgoldman [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
It's Shorpy time!

I follow Shorpy through e-mails - somehow I missed this one but got the heads up through a Trainorders post. Thought you all might enjoy:

Ridiculous High Res here: http://www.shorpy.com/node/14355?size=_original#caption

Amazingly, a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor exists and is located (in need of restoration) at the Museum of Transportation in Kirkwood, MO (St Louis, MO). What a magnificent piece this engine would be fully restored! Instead, for now, it's an engine most would not even have noticed after a visit to the Museum. Time and money, I know.

/Mitch

Attachments:
File comment: Chicago and Northwestern 4-4-0 circa: 1899: "Tracy, Minnesota -- engine of the South Dakota division, Chicago & North-Western R.R." Detroit Publishing http://www.shorpy.com
CNW 607 440 CLR.jpg
CNW 607 440 CLR.jpg [ 300.84 KiB | Viewed 13973 times ]
File comment: C&NW 4-4-0 #274 taken in June of 2011. Build date: 1873. © Mitch Goldman
CNW 274 TO.jpg
CNW 274 TO.jpg [ 251.13 KiB | Viewed 13993 times ]
Author:  Les Beckman [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO!
For the record, the C&NW 4-4-0 at the Museum of Transport was part of the Purdue University collection in West Lafayette, Indiana. She was built by Burnham, Parry and Williams Co. (Baldwin) in January of 1873 as number 274. Leased to the Winona & St. Peter Railroad as their number 40 and renumbered by them in 1882 to #1900 and still later to #1040. In 1908(!) she was donated to Purdue. In the early 1950's, the University decided to get rid of their railroad collection. There were not many railroad museums around at that time (certainly not in Indiana) and the entire collection went to the MoT.

Les
Author:  Joshua K. Blay [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Sorry for the diversion, but is that a P5 I see in the back left? I don't think I have ever seen a photo it at the MoT.

Jsohua
Author:  Mgoldman [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Joshua K. Blay wrote:
Sorry for the diversion, but is that a P5 I see in the back left? I don't think I have ever seen a photo it at the MoT.

Jsohua


Yes it is - and nearly impossible to get a good shot as displayed.

Pennsylvania #4700
PRR/1931
E Class P5
3,750 hp continous
2-C-2

/Mitch

Attachments:
PRR P5a TO.jpg
PRR P5a TO.jpg [ 276.89 KiB | Viewed 13862 times ]
Author:  Orsonroy [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Just for the record, the "ridiculous high-res" image is here (160 meg tiff), not at Shorpy:
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/det.4a04052/
Author:  Mgoldman [ Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Orsonroy wrote:
Just for the record, the "ridiculous high-res" image is here (160 meg tiff), not at Shorpy:
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/det.4a04052/


Thank you!

That leads me to a question I've had for some time - who owns the image and how is it that Shorpy can charge so much for them - let alone anything at all?

Case in point - there was a photo of the yards that became Steamtown. A magazine editor thought it might be cool to publish a then and now photo but representatives at Shorpy asked for an insane amount just to publish a small image. It was not a viable option. Several hundred dollars I believe.

Is it considered public domain once in the Library of Congress? Or once/if it reaches certain criteria that perhaps a vast majority of images on Shorpy have met?

/Mitch

EDIT: I suppose they are charging for the re-touching and editing of the images and the prints themselves.

Still - curious, are the majority of such images available at the same high res as digital files at little or possibly no charge provided they are downloaded as-is?
Author:  Orsonroy [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Virtually everything on the Library of Congress website is public domain, so just about anyone can download the files and use them any way they want (with proper citation for published works). You see people selling 8x10 and poster-sized prints of various LoC images all the time on Ebay and at craft fairs.

And that's one of my biggest beefs about the Shorpy site: true, they're "cleaning up" some of the images they're selling, but selling digital files that they didn't create, and only BARELY citing where each image is coming from, is at least shady. Over 85% of the content there is straight from the LoC collection, and it constantly grates on my nerves when some member of the general public starts talking about "this or that great photo from Shorpy!" I suppose that it is good publicity for the LoC holdings, but most people are passive consumer/sheep, and don't ever bother looking for WHERE something originated, let alone do their own searching. So instead of just going to the LoC and finding goodies, they just let other people spoon-feed them lower quality pap.
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
I'm going to follow this thread with interest.
Has the cosmetic restoration of the NYC Mohawk been completed at St. Louis?
Author:  wilkinsd [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Richard Glueck wrote:
I'm going to follow this thread with interest.
Has the cosmetic restoration of the NYC Mohawk been completed at St. Louis?


Richard,

Good question. I haven't been out in about a month, but last time I was, it was getting awfully close. The volunteers working on it are doing a very thorough job, incluidng replicating jacketing to put back on the boiler.

Another group is working on a cosmetic restoration of the Wabash 573. She is seperated from her tender. Also, volunteers are finishing up work on the wooden vinegar tank car restoration, which includes a new wooden tank.

The trolley volunteres are plugging away at St. Louis Public Service PCC 1743. The exterior is starting to look like a SLPS PCC again, in the red and cream colors, with a white roof.

I'm always amazed at the work going on at MOT.
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
That is very good news. They have so much worthwhile and rare machinery in the collection, and if the Camelback is any representation, the restorations are meticulous.
Deciding what to put under a weather shed has to be one of the toughest decisions.
Author:  JimBoylan [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Can Shorpy charge the magazine if it gets the image from the Library of Congress=?
Author:  jgunning [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Shorpy can't charge a fee to use the Library of Congress file. Anyone with a suitable computer can download and use the file for free. It is in the public domain. I.E. not copyrighted.

In the original C&NW LOC file there are four large fingerprints above the bell and around the headlight. Using Photoshop, the Shorpy folks took those out. They also did some tonal changes to parts of the photo that improved the look of it. The modified file was also digitally sharpened. These are relatively simple skills in Photoshop. The problem is very few folks have the Photoshop program and even fewer have the skills to use it well. Using those skills to make prints and sell enhanced files is what Shorpy is charging for.

I look at Shorpy most days. The material is interesting and sometimes I download the original file to have a better look at it. Many files at the LOC are over 150 mb in size. Shorpy reduces the file size to around 2-3 mb. More manageable for web use.
Author:  Mgoldman [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
The Museum of Transportation recently restored a very rare (is there such thing as "very" rare, lol) Reading steam inspection car - the Black Diamond. One of only a handful of Reading steam engines and perhaps the least known. It's been placed on display indoors. I'd love to see a pic and am looking forward to making a visit.

Ray - thanks again for pointing out the original source of the file. What a treasure chest of information (and eye candy) so remarkably easy to both navigate through (search function) and even download.

As an example - before, after and after (a very quick) edit - this may shed some light on what the LoCongress offers, what Shorpy offers and what about 40 seconds of Photoshop can offer:

Title: D.L. & W. R.R. yards, Scranton, Pa.
Related Names:
Detroit Publishing Co. , publisher
Date Created/Published: [between 1890 and 1901]
Medium: 1 negative : glass ; 8 x 10 in.
Reproduction Number: LC-D4-11616 (b&w glass neg.)
Call Number: LC-D4-11616 <P&P> [P&P]
Repository: Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division Washington, D.C. 20540 USA

/Mitch

Attachments:
File comment: Original Library of Congress image (low res)
DLW Yards Steamtown 4a7312a LR.jpg
DLW Yards Steamtown 4a7312a LR.jpg [ 284.91 KiB | Viewed 13282 times ]
File comment: Library of Congress PS edit (low res)
DLW Yards Steamtown 4a7312a LR E.jpg
DLW Yards Steamtown 4a7312a LR E.jpg [ 264.84 KiB | Viewed 13282 times ]
File comment: Shorpy edit (low res)
DLW Yards Steamtown 4a7312a LR Shorpy.jpg
DLW Yards Steamtown 4a7312a LR Shorpy.jpg [ 260.84 KiB | Viewed 13282 times ]
Author:  Hatchetman [ Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Mitch, et al

I saw that photo yesterday and immediately thought of two of the "Little House on the Prairie" books by Laura Ingalls Wilder, The Long Winter and By the Shores of Silver Lake. There is a fair bit of railroad discussion in both, centered around the railroad town of DeSmet, SD around 1880. It was a great joy reading those with my eight year old daughter. Highly recommended for all.

Rob
Author:  Chris Salmonson [ Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: C&NW 4-4-0 on Shorpy and... a C&NW 4-4-0 survivor in MO
Back to that CNW 4-4-0, what is the purpose of the line from the air compressor exhaust, over the cab and down to the cistern?
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