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 Post subject: Multiple Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:42 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:32 pm
Posts: 46
PR


Last edited by prosser on Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:26 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2477
.


Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:31 pm
Posts: 138
Location: Elizabethtown,PA
prosser wrote:
Does blowing down boilers with chemically treated water create an environmental issue?


Considering the chemicals that are used, and the dilute concentrations and small volumes produced and discharged, no.

What are the chemicals ?

Sodium Carbonate, a.k.a. ' Soda Ash ' or the ancient name, Natron. This is a naturally occurring alkali, very common in deserts. It is a decomposition product of limestone, Calcium Carbonate. This is also present in hardwood ashes. Great Grandmother used this with animal fat to make mild soap. The pH typically settles-out at about 10.5. The old-time traditional, 1890's era boiler water treatment is soda ash and corn starch.

Sodium Hydroxide, a.k.a. Lye or Caustic Soda. This is a more concentrated variant, generated from refining Sodium Carbonate. In moderate concentrations, it is used to manufacture " Dutch Process ' cocoa. When added to hot fats, it will make a harsh soap.
When soda ash is heated in a boiler, it evolves Carbon Dioxide gas which passes out with the steam. The remainder is Sodium Hydroxide. It can be dangerously caustic when concentrated, the pH rising to the 14 range.

Phosphates ( generally, the PO4 ion ), appears in different forms, based on chemical equilibrium and concentration. It is friendly to iron and steel. It, like the materials above, will " soften " water, that is, remove or sequester ( chemically occupy ) the scale-forming ions; calcium, magnesium and soluble iron.

Generally speaking, the three above are referred to as " alkali ", meaning they will form a cement-like deposit when heated and concentrated. When used in boilers, a sludge is formed. This sludge must be removed by blowdown while in a soft and hydrated ( water filled ) state otherwise, they will bake onto hot surfaces as a tenacious scale. The use of dispersants, either modern synthetics or traditional organics such as quebracho tannin, seaweed and starches as previously mentioned, help to keep the sludge fluid. They also serve as crystal growth modifiers; natural scale crystals mechanically interlock, like barbed fishooks. The dispersants, crystal growth modifiers and ' sludge conditioners ' make the crystals round-edged, so they do not interlock and water molecules get in-between, hydrating the mass and allowing it to flow for blowdown and wash-out.

Another necessity associated with the use of alkali is the maintenance of concentration below the formation of Caustic Stress Corrosion Cracking. This is a concentration in crevices and surface features where there is poor circulation. As described previously, a cement-like deposit is formed in the crevice, and continues to build. This can physically separate rivet joints, expand micro-cracks at rivet, staybolt and flue joints. Wherever
alkaline water can enter and boil to high concentration or dryness this danger is a very real hazard. This is the reason why daily or more frequent water sampling and analysis and control of concentration is required when using alkaline treatment.

Back to the question, acid rains naturally neutralize these treatments in surface water.

Some operations choose to use oxygen scavengers, commonly sulfites, and there are others. They are alkalis in their dry form, typically acids in their liquid form.

The modern and automatic treatment, like Terlyn LSB, is an amine. It is elementally nitrogen and hydrogen. In a boiler, it slowly and beneficially decomposes to ammonia related compounds that chemically bond with the calcium, magnesium and free iron in the water, along with whatever salts and crud was introduced with the boiler water. Essentialy, sunlight and exposure to atmospheric oxygen decomposes this back to it's simple elements. It is no more dangerous than cow pee in the Mississippi or window cleaning household ammonia.

Don't ask, don't tell, or some out-of-control beaureaucrat will have you running alongside your lokey holding a washtub under the blowdown pipe.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2701
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
As to the 614 and S'town. I offered to make her available for the Grand Opening in 1995 at a far lower cost than was spent to bring the 261 east from Wisconsin but was turned down. We instead went ahead with the 3 year Hoboken-Pt. Jervis program with NJ Transit, which it turned out was far better for us than going to Scranton.

I suspect that my public critisism of the then inept Superintendent Latcher, particularly on his decision to refuse the donation of a 110ft. turntable so he could spend several million taxpayer dollars to build from scratch a 90 ft. table that's too short to turn a visiting 4-8-4 might have had something to do with it. They've lived with that stupid decision ever since.

Anyhow, in retrospect I'm very glad we were turned down especially after reading Steve Sandberg's remarks about how glad he was to get out of there.

Funny how life often works.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:44 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:32 pm
Posts: 46
PR


Last edited by prosser on Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple Questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1325
Location: Pacific, MO
I'm still baffled by the thermos bottle. You put hot stuff in it, it stays hot. You put cold stuff in it, it stays cold. How do it know?


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