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Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34655		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  railfan44 [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
If you find taking things apart more difficult than putting them back together you'll find this quite interesting and surprising. The following was send around by a Board Member here.

Machinist's Workshop Magazine recently published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts.
They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.

*Penetrating oils .......... Average torque load to loosen*

No Oil used .................. 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ..............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix............53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test.

Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results.
Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.

Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix.

*ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid

And here is a resulting discussion,
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/ge ... il-196347/
Author:  tomgears [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
Very interesting. Thanks for posting.
Author:  Frisco1522 [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
NOW they tell us. Kroil and a heat wrench was the norm.
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
At least it affirms the common legend about WD-40. It's exactly what it says on the tin: Water Displacer #40, and not a penetrating oil at all. Even though it is aggressively marketed as such.

Now there's one wrinkle to the Acetone/ATF formula. Acetone is going to want to flash off. After a month in the summer, that squirt bottle is going to be pretty much just plain ATF.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
ATF and Naphtha works well too. You do have to occasionally add a bit of the more volatile part of the mix. It's best not to smoke when using these mixes either, or course.

One of our guys is a fan of Magic Marvel Mystery Oil for this application - wonder where it fits in?

dave
Author:  Mr. Ed [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
While attempting to take my '46 Chevy pick up apart, I tried everything on the list but the home brew and a few that aren't listed with absolutely horrible results. So I conducted my own test. I put a little in the bottom of a plastic bathroom cup and came back 24 hours later. All of the cups were empty! They all evaporated. So if they evaporate, how can they possibly penetrate? Which is probably why the home brew works so much better, because it does not evaporate as quickly.

The oil needs to penetrate so it needs to be thin enough to do just that but not evaporate. So this is why I'd lean toward the ATF mixture and maybe straight kerosene. I do like the heat wrench procedure but that does not work on 50 year old clutch head screws!

Later!
Mr. Ed
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
Very interesting data! I wonder what role the acetone plays in the process?

As far as "Magic Marvel Mystery Oil" is concerned, I thought that was a movie/album by the Beatles. "Hoping to take you away, take you today!"
Author:  Dave [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
I think we know more about Richard's days in the '60s now.....but it would be nice if somebody has a MSDS what is in it.

dave
Author:  G. W. Laepple [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
When I worked for Ed Blossom in the 1960's, we used gallons and gallons of Marvel Mystery Oil to free up rusted bolts. It worked much better than Kroil and Liquid Wrench.
Author:  wilkinsd [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
Dave wrote:
.....but it would be nice if somebody has a MSDS what is in it.

dave


Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.conncoll.edu/offices/ehs/EnvhealthDocs/Marvel_Mystery_Oil.pdf


David M. Wilkins
Stay Groovy, MO
Author:  NYCRRson [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
Yeah the ATF-Acetone is a good mix. But you will want to use a brush and/or rubber gloves. Acetone molecules are very small and WILL soak INTO your skin. Acetone will disolve all of the oils in the top layers of your skin and may give you a nasty rash if you use too much.

Cheers, Kevin.
Author:  Becky Morgan [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
This may be obvious to some, but the cheapest way to try this if you care to is to hit a dollar store and buy a bottle of nail polish remover. Some of the cheap brands have light oil added. (I doubt the kind with aloe vera would do any good, and be sure it really is the acetone remover and not the alcohol-based.) I don't have anything rusted to mess with at hand or I'd try it.
Author:  Dave [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
Thanks, David. Naphtha and thin oil, essentially......like my homebrew. I went to naphtha after getting a decently annoying case of contact dermatitis from the Acetone brew. Either it is less intrusive or I'm just more careful, but it doesn't seem to be as bad. Your mileage may vary.

dave
Author:  dinwitty [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
the oil needs to not just get oil down where the rust is, it needs to hit on the rust and break it up to loosen any attachements it does.

WD40 tried on a locomotive tender pin, result was no-go.

(765)

Hydraulic power lift loosened, just brute power force.
Author:  Deepest_Valley [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Penetrating Oils Effectiveness
I think I've used all these penetrating oils. Currently I'm using a 50:50 mix of ATF/diesel. Heat the joint it until it begins to smoke. Let it cool, keeping it wet as it cools. This seems to suck the oil into the joint and that breaks the rust bond. It seems to work as well or better than most.

The real reason I'm using this mix, it's cheap and I need a lot. It's used ATF and it's red diesel fuel.
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