The topic on the Strasburg turntable seemed to be veering away from the Cagney operation to the why's and wherefore's of standard gauge operations, so I thought it might be interesting to start a separate thread for discussion of turntables and wyes. Some questions for your consideration and discussion:

Are they necessary in today's tourist train environment, or are they just an expensive bit of infrastructure that is not really needed?

Do they ultimately pay for themselves by reducing maintenance costs, regardless of whether you operate steam or diesel powered trains? (Obviously, both are infrastructure that require maintenance, and thus cost something to have, but does the benefit of having exceed the costs of not having?)

Would you want one or the other for your operation if you didn't have one?

Could you operate as efficiently without if you do have one?

Here are some operations with which I'm familiar:
The SAM Shortline is a strictly diesel operation running an all-day round-trip of about 81 miles (Cordele-Plains) to 86 miles (Cordele-Archery on Saturdays). The locomotives are owned by the host railroad (Heart of Georgia) but the cars are owned by SAM Shortline. Trains are operated pull-pull with diesels located on both ends of the train or by running around before the return leg. In the past, cars have been turned on wyes located distant from the normal operations with one requiring an interchange to NS. More recently, the wye at Cordele has been rebuilt. Normal operating speed is 30mph. Wheel wear is an issue and is a significant maintenance cost when work has to be done.

Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum operates steam pointed forward each way using a wye at Grand Junction and a turntable at East Chattanooga. The turntable work is part of the "attraction" during the layover, with a staff person describing what is going on and why. It is built in as part of the overall experience and it gives the guests a chance to see both sides of the locomotive before they wander off to tour the shop area. At Grand Junction the train runs the wye with returning passengers on-board before pulling in to discharge and board the next group. Quick and efficient. The entire train is turned each run and the locomotive is run forward in both directions. They operate the 6 mile round-trip on a 1:10 minute departure schedule, including the East Chattanooga layover, although the actual trip time is noted as "slightly less than an hour."

Strasburg Rail Road operates their roughly nine-mile round-trip out and back without turning. Departures are scheduled on the hour for a round-trip, and I guess on the half hour when two trains are running.

When Great Smoky Mountains was operating steam they ran like Strasburg. There was no way to turn the locomotive, just run-by tracks at each end.

B&O Railroad Museum operates out and back without turning.

As has been stated, Strasburg has done fine without a turntable or wye, so is either absolutely necessary? Obviously not, but is it beneficial from a maintenance standpoint? I would have to believe that operating steam pointing forward is optimal for the engine and crew, and turning the entire consist each run would even out wheel wear on the coaches as well as the locomotive.

Your thoughts?

I would say that it depends a lot on what type of locomotive you're operating. Most diesels operate fine in either direction, though crew visibility may suffer depending on the model. (I've run F units backwards for 14 miles, it's no fun...)

Some steam locomotives are better suited to it than others. Geared logging locomotives are a lot like diesels, direction doesn't matter from a mechanical point of view. Some rod engines are better than others. 2-8-2's seem to just fine running either way, with the leading and trailing trucks guiding things along smoothly. Obviously there are lots of other wheel arrangements that work well.

As for wheel wear, is that really an issue? Do your line have significantly more curves in one direction than the other? The places I most often hear about wheel wear are those that run on a loop, and so end up doing the "Indy 500" gig, "Go fast and turn left", but usually without the "go fast" bit.

I recall a humorous related to backing up a few years ago. We ran Santa trains, and on the first weekend it snowed, and patronage was light. On the last trip of the day, only one family showed up. I asked if they were locals, thinking I'd give them a free trip if they came back next week. Turned out they'd traveled a long ways.

So I suggested "How about we visit Santa, then I give you a ride in the engine?" Grampa thought that was great, as did the kids. Mom was dubious, but agreed. We took off down the line and crossed a big bridge. We stopped to let them admire the view, and then I told the fireman, "Ok, we'll head back now..." At this point the Mom looks at me in shear terror and says "You're going to drive this thing BACKWARDS across that bridge?!?" After a few moments of explanation, she calmed down a bit, and we s l o w l y headed over the bridge, LOL...

[quote="Stephen S. Syfrett"]I would have to believe that operating steam pointing forward is optimal for the engine and crew, and turning the entire consist each run would even out wheel wear on the coaches as well as the locomotive.
[quote]

Consult your Chief Engineer. Some operations tend to "even out" from the standpoint of wheel wear as there are an equal or nearly equal number of right and left curves.

One operation that comes to mind where this wasn't present is the old Tomstone Junction operation in Kentucky with the former Union RR No. 77. I believe the curves were sharp enough that there was significant wheel wear on one side of the locomotive than the other.

I like the idea of incorporating the turntable experience into the ride - the visitors experience something not normally seen. In storage, the sun hitting only one side tends to fad the paint. Wheel wear would always be evened out regardless of track profile.

I would think the biggest issue with running steam locomotives backwards would be wear on the tender. You can get away with it with tank engines, but the bigger engines aren't designed to run backwards for long distances.

This is a marketing decision that has some impact on maintenance from a long term perspective.

The primary issues is the turnover of the train from one set of passengers to the next set. A simple runaround reduces time at the "far end" of the railroad that could more profitable be spent hauling the next load of paying butts in seats......providing you attract an adequate number of seat-butts to need to run that train. If your operatng plan is based on a marketing strategy of one train per day and no hurry.....then that doesn't matter and it evolves into a hardware issue. If you run to a destination, not a simply turnaround point, your passengers get off to explore that destination and you can do whatever you need to do before boarding for the return trip.

Base your operating strategy on marketing - not the other way around. Base your hardware strategy on your operating strategy. That way everything you do is based on the service you provide your visitors as priority one. If you are eating wheels you might need to find ways in which to limit that damage through lubrication, rolling stock alteration, whatever.......that's just mechanics.

dave

I would never want a turntable for a diesel operation.


Not efficient at all. Not intended to be. Efficient is push-pull, and you can bet that's what they do on Thomas days. Otherwise, it's "fluff" to fill out the rider experience as you say, which is critical for marketing: Like Dave says just above, Marketing decides Operations decides Hardware.


Here's how you back an F-unit.

Step 1. Go to Radio Shack. and get 2 project boxes and electrical bits.
Step 2: Put switches/buttons in one box. Put lights in the other. Wire between them so the controls on one box light lights on the other. Wire it failsafe, e.g. if wires are shorted or opened, or if buttons are released, a less favorable indication appears.
Step 3: Improvise an MU from the lead coach to the locomotive.
You can figure out the rest. You probably only need 2 lights, green "go" and yellow "potential problem ahead be ready to brake". Neither = brake. Both = failed wiring.

You can do a lot more fancy stuff if your train includes a Lackawanna or other EMU control cab.

Visitor Experience ≠ Marketing.

Just to add, I believe what was actually meant was "Authentic Appearance."

The F unit was on the point, but facing backwards.

In cases where we had to push the train, we had a crewman on board the lead coach with a radio, just like any other railroad does a showing movement.

Wonder what, if anything, the FRA would think of your approach. Since it's not an actual control system, I don't know if they'd have any oversight regarding it.

In any case, I don't think I'd want to be part of the interview when you struck a car at a crossing or a pedestrian. "So how did you determine the track ahead was clear?" "Well, we had this bunch of parts from Radio Shack...." Radios (not from Radio Shack) and a dump valve seem like a better answer to me.

Sometimes a turntable can be handy if you have cars with open observation platforms. We have two, quite different open platform cars, so from a user's perspective, not equivalent. One, and as things happened, arrived with the platform on the east end of the car, the other with the platform on the west end. So, if we are going to do a shove move to the west using the car with the platform on the east end, that means the locomotive is attached to the obs platform, a great place to be when whistling! Similar situation, with the other car if we are shoving east.

I'm not saying it would be worth the investment, but a way to turn those cars around would certainly add to flexibility of making up consists.

One operation not yet mentioned where the turntable is an integral part of both the operation and experience: The Western Maryland Scenic RR. The turntable at Frostburg, and the turning and servicing, are part of the 90-minute layover during regular runs, and an attraction in its own right, with a viewing platform on high for folks to watch and photograph. The turntable was deemed quite necessary for 734, and before that the FA2/RSD5 combination and before that the Showalter CP Pacifics.

The WMSR is a much longer operation than average, 16 miles one-way, and the lengthy layover adds a sense of "destination" to the trip that isn't present with a lot of other operations. The option of runaround does exist, and I believe it is used for diesel-pulled dinner/murder-mystery trains, which last I heard had back-to-back GP30's.

I always thought the ideal situation, if your marketing situation was compatible, was to have a wye at each end of the railroad with spring switches preset. That way, you just need a conductor with the dump valve on the end and the radio for backup moves, and nobody has to throw switches.

From the American Marketing Association.

I know we are trying to talk about turning here, but this thread seems to treat "marketing" as all of that B.S. that has nothing to do with running trains (except it does).

The Georgetown Loop Railroad in Colorado has operated quite happily--and often at capacity and having to schedule people for a later train or turn them away--with a point-to-point operation, runaround tracks at both ends, and a 3-1/2% grade connecting the dots. No turntables; no wyes. In better years the ridership has been up around 120,000. Not bad for a single train making back-and-forth trips a few times a day.

Mike

Not from me!!! Marketing is a critical function.
Marketing is not advertising. Marketing is many things including publicity. Publicity is many things including advertising. Advertising means buying advertisements. Trying to outbid Macy's, Toyota and Viagra for a limited number of ad slots. Obviously this is madness, but conventional wisdom is that advertising = marketing and nobody knows how else to market. Well, the book isn't called Guerilla Advertising. 25 years ago, SMRS's publicity triad was press releases, editorial coverage, and brochures. All these were free and very effective, and business doubled every year without a single paid ad. Now everything's changed of course. Press releases are dead, social media is huge. But the core philosophy is truer than ever: Free marketing works better.

Consider the function called "Product Marketing". This means designing your products to match what the public wants (and that you can deliver). This involves research and a lot of cross-discipline meetings among financial, ops, track, mechanical, facilities, publicity, etc. Those people need to work together. If any one department 'wags the dog', product marketing will fail and you'll get products that serve neither you nor the customer.

Product Marketing does the push-pull vs. runaround/turntable analysis. As example they might consider:
capacity issues (can we afford to lose a round-trip to take the time),
operations (is push/pull just too miserable a job for the flagman),
mechanical (can the right equipment be maintained/adapted),
track (can MoW build/maintain turntable/turnouts and sidings),
marketing (will it make or break a nice easy-to-sell hourly schedule),
curatorial (how do we use this to educate/benefit the public),
special projects (can we get another coach to offset capacity),
facilities (layover bathroom, no septic field is possible there),
executive director (how do we fundraise this),
financial (can we afford the fuel, trackwork, bathroom, ridership impacts),
government (can they fund or help with entitlements)
etc.