first a little about myself before I begin as this is my first post, a small introduction if you will. I am currently employed in the US Army as a UH-60L Blackhawk Mechanic and Crewchief, Stationed in El Paso Tx, but I am currently deployed (well at least for a couple more months that is). I used to be a crew member for the SP&S 700 back in Portland Ore, though I was a low level grunt at the time I still very much enjoyed working with a great group of volunteers.


alright now that that is done time to move on to the real meat and potatoes so to speak.
I am trying to revive a dead volunteer work force that hasn't done much since the mid
80's. There are three groups in all, one inactive group that "currently" works on the Southern Pacific 3420, a 2-8-0 locomotive which last ran in the mid 80s until an inspector found an illegal weld done to the boiler by Southern Pacific while the locomotive was still in use. Another group owns 9 PCC cars that are currently rusting at the end of a runway in El Paso. The third group is the only active one I know of, the "Railroad and transportation Museum of El Paso", this group leases a small building just big enough to house and display EP&SW No.1, a 4-4-0 locomotive. All three Groups are looked after by the Southwest Chapter, Railway & Locomotive Historical Society. Here is the main problem as I currently understand, one is that the locomotive and pcc cars are owned by the City of El Paso and the city does not permit use to work on them without insurance. Two is that The volunteer forces as it stands right now are no longer capable of doing restoration work, either because of age or knowledge. Now obviously as I said before I am currently deployed for a couple more months however I am currently formulating a plan to revive this old group and if possible make it even better. I plan on using the most powerful resource I have, Fort Bliss. Ft. Bliss is home to thousands of soldiers which makes it possible to get a small group of volunteers together quickly. now I am going to make a powerpoint presentation of my "plans" and present it to the board (southwest chapter) when i get back. If anyone has been through something like this or has any ideas that you think can work to help save a part of railroading history please
feel free to comment. I need all the help I can get.

First of all,

Welcome to RYPN! I hope you get some good advice.

I think you have a good idea, tapping into a decent pool of people power. From the situation, as you explained it to me, you have two issues.

1. Insurance, or money for insurance. Does the R&LHS group have liability insurance? If so, do you have to join the organization to be covered by it.

2. Goals. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? I would think one of the better ideas is to propose an initial small-scale project. Let's say, cover up and stabilize one of the PCC cars, for a start. Make that your initial project that you propose. If you are successful, then you can do the rest of the cars, or move on to other projects. All success starts on the small scale.

Those are my initial ideas. I do wish you the best in the endeavor.

One of my rail associates spent a couple years assigned to Fort Bliss in the mid-1980s, back when the base still had two Baldwin/Whitcomb-built RS4TC's, the one production loco model that was completely missed by the original Diesel Spotter's Guide books.

I was told that all rail tracks and the locos were removed from Fort Bliss, and this photo caption seems to confirm it:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=82129
Later photo shows them in industrial service in Louisiana:
http://baldwindiesels.railfan.net/rs4tc/4003-4030.jpg

Is there any rail trackage still in use at Fort Bliss, and is there any chance of logistical assistance from anyone there?

Hi

I've been to El Paso several times to evaluate the PCC fleet for the Paso Del Norte volunteer group. The last I had heard the city had some 90 million to install a 6 or 7 mile streetcar line. I've not heard much since then. It would be great to see those old cars back on the stret again. You can see the the articles on line if you go to www.El Paso Trolley....


Cheers--Karl Johnson

Contractors' general liability insurance is not very costly. It's worth your time to first find out what coverage the city requires, than shop around in El Paso itself for coverage. Local agents seem to find ways to get things done......Workers Comp may be different, and I have no idea what Texan specifics might be.

If insurance is a problem, is the city interested in releasing title for the dead hulks to another entity? If so, is there one?

Sounds like there was a reason the PCC cars were acquired, and the projected cost for the desired line construction set the project on a back burner......well, there are many ways to build a streetcar line, and the way that you have to do it to get federal matches is one of the more costly. If there's a shorter part of a route that can be useful by tying existing tourist attractions together, you may find that simply doing it according to 80 year old engineering books (remember electric trolleys have been used since the 1880s and were well matured by WW I) locally with available funds can get you up and running. We got Charlotte's light rail system started with one restored car on a siding near an associated small museum powered by a generator on a trailer.

One lousy illegal weld? Grind the bastard out and reweld it legally. Then do an inspection and work out a new Form 4, which will require retubing and probably a few other things that will surprise you along the way......but don't to any of this unless you have a productive use for the locomotive when it's done. Business plan first - mechanics are just mechanics.

So, there's no reason why things can't be done technically - only local expertise can provide answers to the larger questions about should any specific thing be done, why, and how........Once you've interviewed local business and political opinion leaders, and you know what if any of these things can be done, come back here for technical advice.

dave

SP 3420 is owned by the city of El Paso. Many of the initial legal documents can be found in the Haggerty Collection at UTEP’s Library Special Collections Department. The agreement between phelps dodge and the city of El Paso for SP 3420 to reside at the copper refinery calls for the City to maintain a $1 million dollar liability policy. An incomplete copy of the storage agreement can be found with the City Clerk if they did not loose it in the recent move. The city has been in violation of the insurance part of the agreement since 1987. 3420 was initially restored under the direction of the El Paso Historical Railroad Board. This board has been sun setted. The Transportation and Industrial Archeology board was formed to replace the railroad board and it has been sun setted. My questioning of the city has shown no one capable of pointing me to the current responsible belly button.

The Southwest Chapter was formed as a group for the volunteers on 3420. The only piece of rolling stock it has title to for sure is the Pullman car James Watt which also resides in the refinery under the city’s agreement.

The locomotive failed an FRA inspection in 1986 due a crack in the boiler shell behind the dome. The crack was repaired in January 1990. An Inspection done by Diversified railroad Contractors and their then employee Robert Franzen showed the front tube sheet is fillet welded to the boiler shell. The FRA form 4 then on file showed it riveted. The FRA inspector asked for a determination if a safety factor of 4 is achieved with the weld in place. With the new code the locomotive needs a new form 4. You will need to do the complete grid of readings as I know it was not done. We did take thickness readings at spots and the door sheet has thin areas and may need patching or replacing.

The trollies are coming to the end of a 25 year lease between the City of El Paso and the El Paso Del Norte Street Car association. I do not know which city department has responsibility for them.

As I understand it EP &SW #1 is still owned by the University of Texas system (different from A&M system) and is on loan. The Centennial Museum at UTEP might have info on that.

There have been a number of proposals to operate 3420 including OL activities for the Santa Fe, Toys for Tots, and other ideas. But it will take getting the city on board to do anything.

Respectfully

Robby Peartree
SWC member since 1985
Past Vice President
Past President
Past Board Member

okay a big thanks to all of you that has taken your time and posted replies, especially to Robby Peartree who has cleared up a lot of things.

okay this is my simplified version of my plan, now it is very flexible and can be changed or rewritten completely if the need should arise. remember though as i am still deployed, these plans are still in development.

Short term plans:
-the first step in my short term plan is to move the railroad equipment to a safer and more accessible area. so where should it be moved? Well on Ft. Bliss there are two unused areas where the equipment could be parked and Ft. Bliss has already shown interest in having a display locomotive even if its temporary. the first location is on one of the main entrances and located right next to an MP's Barracks. down side to this location is tracks need to be reconnected to the old warehouse area (now the location of the Freedom crossing or better known as the mall on ft bliss). the next location is also in ft bliss, an old unused vehicle loading ramp next to the airfield. downside to this location is that it is in a far corner of ft bliss and civilian traffic is seldom seen in the area.

-Next plan is to acquirer at least two PCC cars and to restore them to running order. now just because there is no electric lines in el paso anymore does not mean they cant run. In Portland Ore, (Lake Oswego) there is a trolly group that runs their trollies with a generator car (http://www.oerhs.org/wst/) and I plan to do the same here. Not only will it be a cheap way to run excursions but doing any maintenance will be easier if a mobile generator is present.

-Next short term plan is to rework the entire techie side of the group all the while everything I do I will teach to the more long term members (like site maintenance and the like) here is the old website http://trainweb.org/ep-sw/3420.htm and this is a test website I did using everything from the old site http://elpasorails.wix.com/sp3420 and I as well put up a FB page for the locomotive (to which I gave them passwords and everything to change and update anything they wanted but so far no one has touched a thing since I deployed.which means I need to train the old techie how to maintenance the site) now the sites I did where only test sites to get me up to speed in making websites again so they are kind of crummy but oh well. the reason for all of this is to make people (the newer generation) aware of who and what we are.

OK,,,,you have 2 running PCCs and a generator trailer. Where do they run?

dave

Well Dave this is where the biggest problem lies, where to run. The biggest obstacle that we will have to face of the many hurdles we have to jump, is that there is only one place in all of el paso where the museum/Group can run anything. there is a stretch of track about 3 to 4 miles long that connects Ft Bliss to a Union Pacific rail yard, however the military never uses this line and instead prefers a different and much closer connection. now this is where my long term plans take place however it is a little bit of a conundrum as I will probably never see any of it due to my Career (deployments, moves, ect)

Long Term plan:
-I put the Restoration of SP 3420 in long term plan due to lack of facilities, work experience and revenue. though as these plans come onto my drawing board I am currently not taking money into account yet due to the nature of the beast.

-as I said above there is only one short line in all of el paso so acquiring this line is a must. the best way I see to get said line is by having the museum own and operate the short line. now obviously this means the railroad would have to be bought and while there are grants for everything a loan is the most likely way for it to happen. now I do have a back up plan (always operate with at least two), Ft bliss is planning to build a rail line connecting Ft Bliss with White sands Missile range. this when completed will be the largest operating US military railroad since WW2. the back up plan would be to build a railroad "park" on the line somewhere close to the freeway.

-this is where things get...interesting. as I am of the newer generation my ideas tend to be a lot more drastic or different then those before me. although a railroad only museum would be nice it is better in this economy to team up with others, thus comes the plan to team up with "Insights" (http://www.insightselpaso.org/) an interactive science and technology museum that last I heard is being or has been forced to move out of there old home in el paso to make room for a ballpark. the biggest problem I always see with museums is that kids and even adults get board with just "looking" at a static display so an interactive way to teach kids and adults about science or technology would greatly help museums and groups like us. the next plan I have is if we team up however it can still work with us alone.

-finding a permanent location to house and fix equipment is a must for any group. through the power of luck I found a perfect location that not only has rail excess but air craft access as well. it is located in between el paso Airport and Fort bliss, an old abandoned hanger used and owned by the city of el paso (well at least i am 90% sure) the plan is to team up with insights and acquire both the hanger and land up to and including the unused rails. A team up with insights would be able to give us enough pulling power to get more help from the city.

from my experience from working with the SP&S 700 (and sister loco SP 4449) befriending (and even butt kissing) the city will help you out tremendously in the long run. with Ft Bliss behind us and the city tolerating us, these plans are possible. but like the helicopters I fly in day after day. Helicopters are different then planes, planes want to fly by nature but a helicopter does not want to fly. a helicopter has a bunch of moving parts working in opposition of each other and if one part fails, it falls out of the sky. the same thing could be said about my plans, a bunch of moving parts working in opposition to each other and if one plan fails, it would make the whole thing crash to the ground. however in saying that "it is better to try and fail, then not try at all"

The best home 3420 has had is the refinery. In spite of the City’s violation of the contract the refinery let us work on it for years. In the past we had access to equipment, personnel and even an account at the warehouse. The refinery security covers the locomotive better than any location 3420 was stored previously. Further more 3420 is a former EP & SW locomotive and it shares a common history with the refinery. That is why it is there. Public access is a problem but not impossible to overcome.

Every time Fort Bliss gets a new Commandant the rules change for even the Gun Club which was paid for by public funds and the agreement says the citizens are to have access' yet Fort Bliss has a history of violating that agreement. The last thing I want to see is the SWC or the city put more money into a facility only to have it taken away by a new base commander. I do want to see 3420 in a better position but I do not want to see relationships of the past and present destroyed.

The Insights Museum move is a product of the short term vision El Paso suffers from. The former building was less than 20 years old. In that time the vision for El Paso changed and they were now out. If this equipment is to survive it needs long term support like it has had from the refinery.

Respectfully

Robby Peartree

Strategic partnerships from the get-go....I'm impressed.

Robby, you seem to have some expertise - just what is El Paso's vision? Why would it not include a good museum it already built? My only experience is coming in on AMTRAK and walking a couple blocks to find a drug store since I was pretty sick at the time, and was riding through to California. Nice long layover......not a real pretty neighborhood.

Restoring the steamer to operation is probably not as likely as some that may be in better condition. A good static display on the other hand....in some context with hands-on inteactivity and perhaps some multimedia......is intere4sting.

dave

Well Rob I am not arguing about the location in which the locomotive is at and we could very well restore the locomotive there, however the main reason for the "temporary" (and I mean temporary) move to Ft Bliss is to better excess the resources of Bliss, the question really becomes, is it better to leave things as they are and work up with what is currently available or to move to a new location and try to tap into the resources there? I only found this locomotive by chance, as I was just surfing google maps to see what was around my new "home" when I first moved up to el paso. it took me three more months after that to find the locomotive number and who it resides with. now when I was working on the SP&S 700 we too where in a hard to reach location to me a temp move isn't really high on the list but i think that it could give the group a needed boost.

Rob I think you think permanent location would be in ft bliss, if so then let me correct you. the location I have in mind is here https://maps.google.com/maps?safe=off&q=31.805792,-106.401862&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x86e75a61525c880b:0xe9cc95c7b1ed6da6,31.805792,-106.401862&gl=us&ei=jQm-UZKTEYPD0gGToYCgDQ&ved=0CC0Q8gEwAA (actually inside el paso international airport) my plan is to team up with insights (more grants and bigger donations that way) and get the hanger, from there insights could get the hanger and we would get the blank lot across from the flightline (roughly where the tarmac enters the hanger and the yellow X is) i have more plans if a museum can be built (from what I have learned, people do not like to give out money unless they can get exited about your plan) so this means you have to plan way out in advance like what all you want to be in the museum so donations can be made.

actually dave from what I understand sp3420 is in great condition mostly due to the desert climate.

I'm basing the idea on Robby's information about the nonstandard boiler repairs and initial findings during the quick and dirty survey. I'd heard about a locomotive that had the FTS welded in rather than left in place during a late era retubing so they wouldn't have to safe end.....assumed it was urban legend, but......

Since there's not a business reason fora running steamer or a line to use it on, even if it were just a Form 4 away from operating it isn't worth pursuing. Building a great display based around it....nobody has done one that includes all senses very well, her's a chance to go George Lucas on us and see how it can be done.

Hope you find motivated people to train and can overcome your difficulty of not being there to keep things moving.

dave

Dear Dave

Based on the time I lived there and my trips back to see family, the vision for El Paso seems to change with each election. Too often the vision is we have to be like city Abcxyz. The next person comes in and it is another city El Paso is to be like. When UTEP was denying that they wanted to get number 1 off the campus I pushed for a central home for all of the equipment. For the record the restoration of number 1 was done by Mr. Conrad. Now there is a group wanting to turn the space #1 currently resides into retail space. What would happen to #1 I do not know. The city just had an Election and the mayor is changing so we will see what happens next.

phelps dodge has said in the past we could lay track for additional storage space. A year ago last Christmas they expressed their desire to see work resumed on the equipment. I talked to the #3 man and I know the other top two in the plant and they are good solid people to work with. For the record there is a 1911 dinner, 14 berth Pullman sleeper James Watt , a 1928 SP tank Car (double yoke couplers) 1920’s era flat (SP), a 1936 box car (SP), and two AT&SF CE-2 cabooses in the refinery besides 3420.

The front tube sheet was welded by the SP. Apparently SP had a practice of replacing front tube sheets when a barrel inspection was due because they just cut the tubes at the firebox and then jerk the whole mess out. They usually cut the front tube sheet at the flange but for some reason they did not on 3420 and we have the front tube sheet welded to the 1st course. In addition to Mr. Franzen, Mr. John Bush and Mr. Matt Austin have also seen it. For the record 3420 is one of the last two locomotives on the SP converted to oil from coal. This was done in April of 1951.

Robby Peartree