Does any one have a fairly recent photo of the Shay sn-3327, reported under restoration 9for years now) at Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad, Mineral, WA? Or an update on it's condition?

Brian Wise is the CMO there and easy to reach. Give me a shout of if you need his contact data. Cheers! Jim

Brian's active on here from time to time as well, so maybe he'll chime in.

I have photos of pretty much everything at MRSR, but the Shay (not to be confused with the Willamette) was mostly pre digital camera era for me, so I have very little of her.

As for the repairs, the engine is in good shape. I don't recall any major work being needed, and as far as I can recall she was in pretty good operating condition when parked. The main problem is that her boiler time is up, and the work is expensive. Of course, being a geared loco, I'm sure some stuff could use some TLC. Once done, we'd have an enginee that is essentially identical to the Willamette, and one that would struggle to keep our schedule.

I suspect that's the main reason she's still sidelined. (My opinion only, nothing official.) I've heard they'd like her back in service, but if there's an actual timeline for that, I'm not aware of it.

I was there today. The shay is in their "House of Gears" along with a Willamette, Heisler and Climax. Since it is in the back of the building it is hard to get a good picture of her.

Hammond Lumber Co #17 is currently in their shop finishing up it's boiler inspection. They plan to have #17 back in steam before the end of the year. I'm not sure which engine they will be working on next.





More pictures from my visit to Mt Rainier Scenic Railroad:
http://trains.uoregon.edu/drupal/gallery/railroads/mt_rainier_scenic_railroad_9-1-2013/

Tim's photo of Shay #33 shows the current status of the locomotive as a static display. There has not been any work done to return this locomotive to service beyond an attempt to complete non-destructive testing on the boiler back in the early 2000's. A thorough examination of the entire locomotive is necessary to determine what repairs are needed before this locomotive runs again. We are currently focused on completing the 1472-day inspection of our Alco 2-8-2T (Hammond Lumber #17). No determination has been made as to what our next locomotive project will be, although a thorough rebuild of the running gear under our "West Coast Special" Heisler #91 is at the top of the list. Returning the Shay to operation is still on the docket, but there are other projects that are more critical to the continued operation of our excursion trains.

Brian Wise
General Manager
Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad

I think that the previous poster meant 11 and not 33 when referring to the Shay at Mineral.

Pickering in fact, did have a Shay 33 among its roster of geared power and ironically, it was the 11 and 33 that were still active in the woods into November of 1963, the last regular use of steam on the railroad.

It was mentioned some time back that Pacific Coast type 11 was the flagship of the Pickering roster. I'd like to disagree with that here. While the PC type offered a lot of power (38,200 lbs. t.e.) in a smaller package, it came at a cost as they were geared lower than 80-3 and 90-3 models with standard gear ratios. The PC was 17 to 41 while the others were 20 to 41. Pickering crews were not fond of the 11 and she was sometimes written up with defects in the hot summertime so the helper crew could then get 80-3 Shay 6 which afforded a cooler cab.

Karl Koenig provided me with some figures on miles and here's a comparison between the vaunted 11 and 90-3 33.

1947 Shay 11 10,916 miles Shay 33 21,241 miles
1955 Shay 11 12,025 miles Shay 33 18,347 miles
1961 Shay 11 1,466 miles Shay 33 4,909 miles

Shay 33 consistently got more miles nearly every year than Shay 11. I have heard
it said from 2 Pickering enginemen that the 90-3 Shay was the best choice for the railroad.

BTW, that b&w photo of the 11 is on the 2.2% pull just out of Beardsley Dam right at Mile 41.

Tom, he probably picked up the 33 from the builder's number, 3327.

I can definitely see crews not wanting to be on the 11 during hot months. When we first restored her, I was a fairly new engineer. The crew caller said "You want to run the Shay?" I replied "Yeah, sure!" He quickly replied "Great, you're marked up for engineer both days!"

That's when I started to wonder what the deal was. None of the more senior engineers wanted to run? I quickly found out a few things.

1) Despite that nice big engineer's window in the cab, she's hotter than a pistol. Having the cylinders right next to your knees is like cuddling up to a steam radiator set on high. The "breeze" coming through that window at 8 or 10 doesn't stand a chance, and besides it passes right over top of the cylinders before it gets to you... BTW, she's great for Santa Train. ;)

2) Running a Shay isn't all that exciting. We were running on the line to New Reliance, which is pretty consistent and curve compensated. I got the throttle set up, and the fireman took care of things on his side, and then we churned our way up the hill at 10 mph, and aside from giving her the occasional drink, there wasn't much that needed to be done. The fact she's geared so low pretty much evened out any slight changes in grade and curvature.

3) Even going downhill wasn't very interesting. As I said, I was a new engineer, so I was looking forward to practicing my air brake skills. We started down the hill, I closed the throttle and found that Shays have a pretty close approximation of dynamic brakes due to the resistance of all that machinery. We rolled all the way to town without ever once using the air. In fact, at one point I had to give her a bit more steam to keep her rolling. I think the only time I took a set was upon arrival at the station.

She also used a lot of steam. I recall one Christmas train where we were doing a push/pull operation and the Shay was coupled at the rear of the train. The head end was grumbling that it felt like a boat anchor. I went back and looked at the coupler and saw she was indeed being towed rather than pushing.

Blackie Moser was the engineer and I radio'd him that he wasn't pushing. "Give her some more throttle!" ... "Give her some more!''.... "A little more!" .... "OK, you're finally at the point where the couplers are slack..."

He replied "This thing would use 10 pounds of steam falling down a well!"

Bob, you certainly experienced that hot cab then. Compared to the other Pacific Coast type Shays, the 11 had an extension on the oil bunker in the middle which also served to cut down on air flow through the cab and further button up the heat in there. Everything's a trade off, but that extra fuel capacity also helped make the 11 the heaviest of her type, almost 97 tons in working order. Most others were around 94 tons and a few were termed lightweight and were lighter yet. That extra 3-4 tons gave the 11 a slight edge in adhesion.

Dan Ranger & I spent many a day in the 11 in the 70's when she was at Rio Vista Junction. We were both kids then...I wouldn't relish that now

Not to get too far off topic, but I wonder if the inefficiencies of Shay #11 would be a good reason to not restore her to operation, at least not right now perhaps.

MRSR already has tons (literally) of operating steam power. Does such an operation really need to operationally restore every last locomotive? Would money allocated for the #11 be better spent making a top-of-the-line static display? Replacement boiler jacket, new paint, interpretive signs (interactive digital signage, perhaps?), a tour-able cab, a lit headlight, a ring-able bell (with kid-proof cord) would all help make for a fabulous static display. Turning her around so she doesn't face the back of the shed would help too.

I know, some steam buffs and railfans insist that every last steam locomotive be returned to steam, never mind that some locomotive designs just aren't well-suited for modern-day uses, even slow-speed tourist/museum operation. These locomotives aren't just locomotives now, they're artifacts. They can be used for teaching history, but they needn't all teach it in the same way. Having a locomotive outside under steam and one indoors that you can examine and experience up-close (perhaps even hands-on) are two different teaching methods. In my opinion, having both types of exhibits will improve the visitor experience.

Ultimately, it's up to MRSR to decide what they will do with #11, but, just for the sake of discussion, what do you think? What "makes sense" to you? What do you think would improve the public's experience? All operational? All static? A good mix/balance of both?

WR, that is the question. MRSR is proud of their collection of geared logging locomotives. Having #11 restored would make us the only place in the world to have all of the "big three" operational, at least until the Climax at Cass is done.

On the other hand, practically speaking, the Willamette can illustrate how a Shay functions pretty well, and they're the slowest of the geared locos, thus the hardest to keep on schedule.

The decision isn't easy, no matter which course they choose.

As for what I'd do, I'd restore it to operation. There's something about a living breathing steam locomotive that just has to be experienced to be understood. I think of that every time I "wake one up" in the morning before a days run, they seem to come to life.

The Smithsonian, Baltimore, Sacramento, RRM of PA, they all do an amazing job. But they still don't give you the whole picture.

Maybe if a loco is the only one of it's kind, or extremely historic, then preserve it untouched (bearing in mind that much of the original fabric was probably lost during the time in service). But as long as you're not unduly risking a one of a kind artifact, then go for it!

Also, consider this, on a typical operating day at MRSR, all but one of the engines are static displays, and the operational ones show you exactly what the engine looks like in service, ready to run. That may be a more realistic picture than the polished jewel in a museum.

By keeping them operational, we're also preserving far more of railroad history. What it takes to "care and feed" them. MRSR has an amazing shop where skills from the steam era are kept alive. No computer controlled 5 axis CNC machines, even though they might wish they had one.

The engine and train crews also keep history and skills alive, even in the small stuff like realizing that running a Shay in summer is a bear! I recall my great grandfather coming home from the mill in summer and complaining about the heat. He'd eat salt tablets like candy, and in fact they had a some that were like candy to try and get the men to eat them.

I recall watching cars full of red hot ingots heading down the track and feeling the heat from 50 feet away. They also had molten steel cars that were even hotter. They worked with them year round, including 90 degree heat and 90% humidity.

You don't see stuff like that in photos. You won't understand it from a display piece. I don't know if it's in many books or not. But it's an important part of the history and the daily life, and something that many young folks have no understanding of.

My mistaking our Shay's number must have been a Freudian slip. And as far as cabs go, I believe I'd take the #11's cab over that of the #33 any day, based on the stories I heard from "Tiny" Freeman, who ran both locomotives during summer weather.

Regarding the question of whether or not to return the #11 to operation, the major factor we have to take into account is Mr. Tom Murray's vision for MRSR, and his passion to see each of the locomotives operable, particularly the Shay as it is his favorite of the bunch. I don't think there is any question that the #11 will be returned to operable condition at some point. The question is what level of rebuild should be done. Yes, the #11 was taken out of service in operating condition, therefore it stands to reason that one could perform the FRA 1472-day inspection of the boiler and be done with it. You could end up with an operable locomotive with mechanical issues. I've not seen the locomotive run since it was returned to service by Jack Anderson and company, so I do not have first-hand knowledge of any issues. I have, though, heard a number of stories by volunteers who ran her about bearings in the front truck running hot, and serious piston and/or valve ring blow-by. In my opinion, if you are going to spend the funds to re-certify the boiler, then you should take the time to look into these other issues, too.

WR's comments about improvements to the Shay for static display are well taken. There is much that could be done to simply make the Shay present better, such as a paint job and lettering. Putting the jacket back on it has been discussed, but we've decided to leave the boiler exposed as you can see the UT grid, flexible stays, etc., which makes for a great teaching aid. As for signage, we already have professionally fabricated signage in place for our locomotives, with more in the works as part of our overall museum project.

Brian Wise
General Manager
Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad