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| Q for the coal-burning crowd... https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3599 |
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| Author: | jimwrinn [ Sun Jul 28, 2002 7:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Q for the coal-burning crowd... |
What's better (or if you're in a bad mood, worse) for a steam engine that's run each weekend... keep a bank in it all week or let the fire die out Sunday night and build a new one on Friday evening. We perform the latter at NCTM, but I've heard of some other locations that bank a fire for the week, so I'm curious to see what their experience has been. We've had good results... primarily from slow warm ups and cool downs. http://nctrans.org Wrinnbo@aol.com |
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| Author: | doc lewis [ Sun Jul 28, 2002 7:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: firing up procedures at HVRR |
Slow warm-ups and cooldowns are also felt to be best for the life of the boiler at the Heber Valley RR. If an engine is scheduled for Saturday morning, the fire is started Friday morning and allowed to slowly build until late Friday evening (100-120psi on the guage)when a small bank is built to allow simmering. Saturday morning the bank is pushed down and the pressure brought up again (this time to operating pressure) over the course of 3-4 hours. All told, it is close to 24 hours from the cold start. doc lewis utweyesguy@aol.com |
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| Author: | G. Mark Ray - TVRM [ Mon Jul 29, 2002 8:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: firing up procedures at HVRR |
Jim, Just remember that those days with the fire banked count as service days. Mark TVRM Shop Updates by Steve Freer aw90h@cs.com |
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| Author: | Kevin McCabe [ Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: firing up procedures at HVRR |
In the past at IRM, we had banked the fire in Frisco 1630 and Shay 5 on Sundays and left the boilers to cool gradually. Over the past three or four years, though (and with an eye toward the "service days" issue), we now simply cap the stack at the end of the weekend, which causes the fire to go out within a very short time. I've heard both sides of the argument about which method causes the least stress on the boiler, but my conclusion is that as long as there isn't any type of "shock cooling"--i.e., filling the boiler without maintaining pressure throughout the process, or making a bank that permits cold air to be drawn up through another part of the firebox--there shouldn't be much of a difference. J. David, do you want to put an oar in the water here? kevinmccabe@avenew.com |
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| Author: | Kelly [ Mon Jul 29, 2002 3:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Q for the coal-burning crowd... |
We bring the engine in with a fairly low fire, then let the fire go out Sunday night, then cap the stack Monday morning. We had trouble with the fire not burning out if we capped the stack immediately after pulling into the engine house, the glowing coals on Monday morning causing another service day to bite the dust. With the stack capped all week, the larger engines will still be warm to the touch on Friday. We will fire up on Friday, unless someone is scheduled in very early on Saturday, say five or six hours before train time, to have time to get steam up. If an engine is to sit longer than five or six days, we will dump the water and take four washout plugs out the next morning, after the pressure is out but while the boiler is still hot. The remaining heat helps evaporate the remaining water, leaving a dry boiler. (Note, don't do this if the boiler is too hot, as it will tend to bake the scale on.) Then, a heat lamp is placed in the firebox 24/7 until the next steam up. Strasburg Rail Road kelly@strasburgrailroad.com |
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| Author: | J. David [ Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: firing up procedures at HVRR |
> Dear Kevin: We don't have too much of an issue with "service days" since we generally operate 7 days a week. However for our Christmas schedule especially, this does become a factor. Depending upon how many days it will be until the next use of the locomotive, we might let the fire go out or keep it on bank for a day or two. The rule defines a "service day" as one where there is a fire in the firebox and pressure above atmospheric in the boiler. So, if we are starting with warm water we put a small fire in to gradually warm up the boiler and bank it prior to going home in the afternoon, no pressure showing. At some time overnight, the pressure will begin to build up, and when we arrive in the morning there will be sufficent pressure to run the blower and raise steam for the day's work, trying to keep the pressure from raising any more that 1 psi per minute. We allow at least 24 hours for the process of firing up a locomotive from cold, and remember, the Valley has rather small locomotives, I would recommend a longer time for a larger locomotive. I would also note that we have a full time paid staff to do all of this. I accept and agree that a volunteer group might have difficulty doing likewise. That being said, it is unlikely that a group operating only on weekends would use up their 1472 days before their 15 years were up. During the meetings which formulated the new rules I argued against counting days a locomotive is on bank as service days, but to no avail. The main thing, regardless of whether you operate 7 days a week or only occationally, is to fire up and cool down as slowly as possible. J. David jdconrad@snet.net |
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| Author: | HP [ Tue Jul 30, 2002 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Getting it warm with hot water.... |
Has anyone given any thought to the idea of using a stationary heating boiler, connected to the locomotive's boiler via flexible quick-connectors, to keep the loco boiler water temp "floating" at about 180-200 degrees? The boiler would be nice and warm and expanded, there would be neither fire nor pressure, and a service day would be "in the bank". This concept is obviously not new, simply a modification of the old "direct steaming" that was used by some railroads from the 20s on. To put the locomotive in service for the day, build the fire on the grates and start raising steam pressure at the JDC-approved 1 lb. per minute rate. If the locomotive is not going to be used the next day(s), the fire is allowed to die at the end of the day's operation. A good-sized commercial oil or gas-fired "package" boiler could be used, like a Cleaver-Brooks or similar. It could also heat the shop! Yes, this would cost some money, but what is each day (of the 1472 alloted) worth? Thoughts and/or flames, anyone? hpincus@mindspring.com |
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| Author: | Bob Yarger [ Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Getting it warm with hot water.... |
In my Kansas hometown, the Rock Island kept a steam big hook and rotary snowplow ready on hot water into the 1960s. This was at a small metal enginehouse with just a natural gas heater. The crane was kept hot all year long. Not sure what the effect on the boilers was though. > Has anyone given any thought to the idea of > using a stationary heating boiler, connected > to the locomotive's boiler via flexible > quick-connectors, to keep the loco boiler > water temp "floating" at about > 180-200 degrees? > The boiler would be nice and warm and > expanded, there would be neither fire nor > pressure, and a service day would be > "in the bank". This concept is > obviously not new, simply a modification of > the old "direct steaming" that was > used by some railroads from the 20s on. To > put the locomotive in service for the day, > build the fire on the grates and start > raising steam pressure at the JDC-approved 1 > lb. per minute rate. If the locomotive is > not going to be used the next day(s), the > fire is allowed to die at the end of the > day's operation. > A good-sized commercial oil or gas-fired > "package" boiler could be used, > like a Cleaver-Brooks or similar. It could > also heat the shop! Yes, this would cost > some money, but what is each day (of the > 1472 alloted) worth? > Thoughts and/or flames, anyone? ryarger@rypn.org |
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| Author: | Earl Pitts [ Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Getting it warm with hot water.... |
If you have a small stationary boiler available, over even a steam generator (in or out of a diesel unit) it will keep the locomotive hot. You will have boiler pressure, but no fire, so that doesn't count as a Service Day or days (the rule clearly specifies that you must have both fire AND pressure to use a service day). A Vapor-Clarkson 4740 or smaller will produce enough steam and pressure to keep a 2-8-0 at around 60 pounds, and all the steel stays warm. Just tie it into a blowoff cock so it heats from the bottom (mudring) up. Don't try to hook it to the steam dome or the turret as all the heat will stay in the top of the boiler, while the bottom will be room temperature. Drawbacks? Sure! Among them are the costs of fuel (diesel oil) for the steam generator or gas (LPG or natural or oil) for a stationary boiler. They can suck down a lot of fuel. Someone needs to monitor the plant or it must have automatic shutdowns and alarm systems. Water treatment must be watched closely, etc. |
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| Author: | Earl Pitts [ Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Getting it warm ..More. |
> A Vapor-Clarkson 4740 or smaller will > produce enough steam and pressure to keep a > 2-8-0 at around 60 pounds, and all the steel > stays warm. Just tie it into a blowoff cock > so it heats from the bottom (mudring) up. > Don't try to hook it to the steam dome or > the turret as all the heat will stay in the > top of the boiler, while the bottom will be > room temperature. > Drawbacks? Sure! Among them are the costs of > fuel (diesel oil) for the steam generator or > gas (LPG or natural or oil) for a stationary > boiler. They can suck down a lot of fuel. > Someone needs to monitor the plant or it > must have automatic shutdowns and alarm > systems. Water treatment must be watched > closely, etc. I forgot to add that this is also a good warm-up procedure. A couple of days before a run, hook the stationary boiler to the cold, empty locomotive. For the first 12 hours or so, the steam coming into the boiler will quickly condense back into water, but it will be warm water. As time goes by, the temperature of this water will rise, as will that of the steel, as steam continues to come in; this process will continue until the temperatures of the boiler and the water in it and the incoming steam equalize. You will have to blow out the excess water once in a while, but at the end of 18 or 24 hours, your boiler and firebox will be fully and evenly warmed up, the expansion process will have begun slowly and evenly, you will have a full glass of water in the boiler and about 30-40 psi of pressure on the gauge. Maybe more. You can light the fire and already have steam for the blower (or for the atomizer and tank heater if it's a grease burner) and the injector when it's needed. From there it's just a matter of a couple of hours to bring it up to operating pressure safely, as most of the warming and expansion is already done. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Getting it warm with hot water.... |
The new generation of steam locomotives coming out of Swiss Locomotive Works (whatever they are called now) has a fire up option of an electrically powered heater which can be started by telephone or computer remote control and will heat the boiler up gradually to enough pressure to light the burners. The preheater is seperate and connectd to the boiler by means of some quick disconnect fittings if I understand correctly. The Jupiter and 119 replicas share their enginehouse with a boiler room which was supposed to provide a stationary boiler for the same function, and to maintain pressure overnight. The stationary boiler is located at a lower level than the locomotive boilers and actually gradually drained the locomotives, while becoming waterlogged itself. Done properly it seems to be a good idea. Dave irondave@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Greg Radler [ Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Getting it warm ..More. |
Why not just pipe in a closed loop system into a stationary heater/boiler. This way you don't have to worry with watching the water level as much. Hot water into the blowoff cocks and cold water out somewhere near the front. > I forgot to add that this is also a good > warm-up procedure. A couple of days before a > run, hook the stationary boiler to the cold, > empty locomotive. For the first 12 hours or > so, the steam coming into the boiler will > quickly condense back into water, but it > will be warm water. As time goes by, the > temperature of this water will rise, as will > that of the steel, as steam continues to > come in; this process will continue until > the temperatures of the boiler and the water > in it and the incoming steam equalize. You > will have to blow out the excess water once > in a while, but at the end of 18 or 24 > hours, your boiler and firebox will be fully > and evenly warmed up, the expansion process > will have begun slowly and evenly, you will > have a full glass of water in the boiler and > about 30-40 psi of pressure on the gauge. > Maybe more. > You can light the fire and already have > steam for the blower (or for the atomizer > and tank heater if it's a grease burner) and > the injector when it's needed. From there > it's just a matter of a couple of hours to > bring it up to operating pressure safely, as > most of the warming and expansion is already > done. http://rypn.org/TRPA/ greg.radler@parsons.com |
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