http://www.losttracksoftime.com/p47324941

All,

Follow the link above to my photos of the fifteen scrapped US Army Transportation standard gauge wood boxcars in the railyard of the East Broad Top RR at Mount Union, PA.

This day is last Saturday, December 21st – none of the narrow gauge hoppers were touched; no fresh footprints near them.

Two images stuck in my mind is the first one in the gallery; the ghostly outline on the ground of the demolished cars made by the recent snowfall, and the last photo which shows the burn piles still smoldering.

I usually close my forum posts with the word “enjoy”; not the case this time around.

Matthew

Matthew -

Thanks for posting these photos. I'm going to comment about them in another (previous) thread.

Les

From what I saw, most of the wood from these scrapped cars was gone, either burned or already hauled away.

Can anyone put an approximate dollar amount on how much the metals from this scrapping would bring?

Take away the cost of machinery, fuel, and at least a work crew of three (assuming they sat to take breaks in those three plastic lawn chairs seen in a few of the photos), what is the profit from a job like this?

The value of the metal isn't the big deal - making the property available for redevelopment is. If you want to know the value of the metal, but a pair of the trucks then add about 15%.

dave

Except the trucks are apparently being marketed at substantially above "scrap value."

I had a pro (who is pro-rail preservation) who knows the equipment in question do a quick run-down in his head of what one of the EBT hoppers would realize, scrapped, based on other rail equipment he's scrapped for others. He said "after costs, maybe somewhere between $500 and $1,000, trucks included, if you're using big jaw cutters." He was actually momentarily interested in an EBT hopper for another project somewhere until I told him what the cars had been offered for. "Wha-a-a-a-t? That's crazy......"

One has to wonder what sort of market exists for 1940s Andrews trucks with cast iron wheels and (reportedly) missing bearings? Enough to command some premium price? Perhaps in the eye of the seller.

As for the rest of those cars, steel scrap is currently at a high value according to the firm that just last week scrapped two diesel locos for Pennsylvania Trolley Museum. They wasted no time reducing both to marketable pieces.

Because they have greater value than scrap. Hence all the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands on how many threads now? If you limit yourself to considering them only as scrap, and value them accordingly, scrapping them is what makes the most sense from the beginning.

It makes sense if you avoid emotional reactionary perspectives and look at it from the bigger picture. You can't rationally justify the owner's valuation as being greater than scrap and oppose valuing them accordingly at the same time. All he did was remove the mostly deteriorated material of much less value to make the most of his assets.

If he's wrong and they are worth only scrap value, then scrapping is the logical course of action.

So, buy them at his valuation or make peace with their demise. Your choice.

dave

Now, to be completely fair, I haven't seen any price on the standard-gauge running gear that was apparently set aside from these cars. My presumption is based on the price publicly quoted on the hoppers.

But....... no.

If I have a 1950 DeSoto station wagon that hasn't moved for fifty years sitting in the "back 40" and returning to nature with busted windows, plants growing in the upholstery, etc., and I try to offer it for $55,000, I'm not going to get any takers. The only interest is going to be from either hopelessly delusional/masochistic dreamers (they exist, but there are far fewer in rail preservation than in autos) or people who might need the parts from said model, and the latter pool is ridiculously small--less than a half dozen worldwide, I'd hazard a guess. And if you go and demand $5,000 for the differential, rusting-through fender, or cracked window from the one person who might show up to ask, he's going to turn around and find an alternative, or take up a more intelligent hobby. (As I type, there are all kinds of old cars on eBay attracting not a single bid, or not matching reserves.)

The trucks in Mount Union MAY be worth more than scrap value, if someone--ANYONE--demonstrates a need for any of them and the wherewithal to go get them. How much more is determined by the marketplace. In the case of a single seller and/or a (presumably) extremely limited number of people potentially interested (and fewer still of solid financial means), the economic market is badly distorted. The only way we're going to find out is if someone goes to them with a check for the asking price or makes a counter-offer, and is ready to act should either be accepted. Anyone??

And if I smash up that 1950 DeSoto in a crusher rather than broker the parts for semi-reasonable prices, I come off looking like an unreasonable jerk, even if I'm 100% within my rights to do so. And the junk yard down the road will only give me $200 for it anyway, so....

(And for the record, search this forum long enough, and you'll find I have first-hand experience in dealing with scrappers and trucks. I have no financial or logistical interest in this particular bunch unless someone sends me to check them out on their behalf.)

The Kovalchicks own or have financial interest in one or more steel mills, so the value of scrap metal to them may be considerably more than it would be to a third party merchant/broker selling on the open market. They are major dealers in used railroad material, equipment and parts, both domestically and internationally.

Alan Maples

But you don't necessarily need to get any takers. When you have the last DeSoto with the necessary parts to repair Jay Leno's car, you will get your price.

Has anybody tried negotiating?

dave

The above scenario depends on 1) Jay Leno, or a similarly well-to-do and maniacal car collector, 2) having a DeSoto that he wants to repair for which 3) this hypothetical yard junker is the ONLY available source of parts, that 4) aftermarket parts, replication from scratch, or close-enough-to-work retrofit are still more expensive, and 5) Jay Leno/whoever being drunk or on drugs at the time of the transaction.

So, in hopes of that scenario occurring against very long odds, you're going to hold out for the impossibly high price, and meanwhile the guy or guys who'd really like to make something of this "wreck" or its carcass and probably could do so if you were grounded in reality, get the shaft, or patiently wait for you to die and hope you haven't infected any heirs with this mentality.....

Well Sandy, he's had them for sale for longer than you have been alive so I suppose there's no hurry from his perspective. They can await buyers for another 50 years perhaps, or equally likely if not more so they will also eventually be sold or scrapped.

Again, it doesn't matter - if you want to preserve a set of trucks, you have to pay what they are going for to get them. If you are set on trucks from these cars, well.....there's only one source available. Turn it around, and it becomes obvious that if any set of freight trucks will do you can get a much better price, but then they wouldn't be these trucks.

Every painting isn't Mona Lisa, and Mona Lisa is only a masterpiece and worth any amount of money because there's a consensus among people with the expertise and resources that promote that perspective of reality. The value of the wood, cloth and paint itself.....miniscule if not combined by Leonardo into this work.

So...what makes this particular line of rotting rolling stock nobody bought for 50 years when they could have done so suddenly of great value and of great concern but not reflecting that in price?

dave

I would conclude that if the cars never sold for 50 years, the price was too high.

The way I see it, the seller can either scrap the entire lot with no delay; or hold out for a higher price by sale to the re-use market, and make more money on each unit. But for the latter, he will need to wait for each unit to sell in limited quantities, so it takes time to wait for offers, and some effort to communicate with each one. A benefit of the individual sales approach is that the seller has the luxury of being able to set the price as high as he wants, and the higher it is, the more the seller makes on each sale. But the risk to the high price is spending time waiting for sales that never materialize because the price is deemed too high by the re-use market.

So the realistic options are either to scrap to the unlimited market, or advertise to the re-use market at a price high enough above the scrap price to cover the cost of time, advertising, and communicating, plus some degree of margin above the scrap option (which does not require those expenses). There is a sweet spot there somewhere that a skillful marketer will determine. But putting the equipment on the re-use market without any sales for several years (assuming that there is a re-use market) indicates that the sweet spot has not been found.

Here is Lance Myers' Flickr account of the Army boxcars being cut up in Mt Union:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lrmyers/se ... 912/page2/

Along with some excellent pics of the Mt Union yard seen from above!