I had a very interesting conversation via e-mail over the last few weeks with a few folks who were miffed that such-and-such engine wasn't recently purchased for preservation.

Of course, it wasn't purchased becasue no one stepped forward to purchase it. The "moffed" part came in when I suggested that no one came forward becuase it wasn't worth anything more than sentimental value.

It got me to thinking about our somtimes misplaced obsession with locomotives. The point was driven home when I visted the Railroad Museum of New England on Sunday. The RMNE has a very large and diverse collection of historic and rare equipment, of which only a few are locomotives.

Whatever magic they worked, they have resisted acquiring every diesel out there in exchange for hunting out some very interesting frieght and passenger cars (inlcuding examples of cars that were once commonplace like a PRR H-39 hopper).

The result?

Rather than a group whose entire budget is spent painting "fake" diesels and the like, the RMNE actually has the potential to interpret a few appropriate locomotives pulling a decent-sized appropriate train.

That's a really, really uncommon thing.

Think about it...

How many times do you see a photo frieght or frieght train demonstration at a museum where the train is made up of equipment that compliments the provenance of the locomotive?

Steamtown, RMNE, EBT and a handful of others can do it now with trains in the 10-car length or so. Other museums have the potential to do it. Eventually, RMNE might be able to put out a 20 car frieght behind thier RS-3 and truly interpret "loose car railroading" of the 1950's with a living display.

We've already lost the chance to have a string of USRA 2-bay hoppers behind one of the four surviving Reading T-1's ... there's no Crusader trainset left (but ALL the FP-7's from the RDG are saved)... we'll have a good-as-new Pennsy K-4 soon with hardly a full set of P-70's out there to restore for her...

The locomotive-oriented collections are neat, don't get me wrong, and most have pieces of significant impact.

What I am asking is what good is the head without the body?

Everyone's excited about an Amtrak F-40 going to a museum (and one should), so is the next step lining up the Amfleet donation? These engines and cars are the Alpha and Omega of 1970's American passenger trains and both represent siginificant technical and social diversions.

I'm a gambler. I'd give up every EL SDP-45, ATSF SDP40F and even part-out an old C&NW E-unit in exchange for a 2 Amfleet 1 coaches and an Amfleet 1 lounge to go with an F-40.

What is your opinion?

Rob Davis



trains@robertjohndavis.com

Fans are just too locomotive crazy! You're right, too many museums focus on the locomotives and not the freight or passenger cars they once pulled. One museum I know broke up a complete passenger train exhibit(about 7 cars from business car to RPO which the visitor could once walk through) just to cram in more diesels into the museum grounds.
You see a similar phenomenon with steam specials. Heads will turn and cameras are lowered before the baggage car goes by. Few take notice of the rest of the train set.
Recent photographers' specials on various tourist lines seem to at least give due to the WHOLE TRAIN.

> The locomotive-oriented collections are
> neat, don't get me wrong, and most have
> pieces of significant impact.

> What I am asking is what good is the head
> without the body?

In general, I agree. But sometimes this leads to the classic damned-if-you-do; damned-if-you-don't situation.

Consider the B&O Museum. In the early through the mid 1990s they went on a very agressive campaign to acquire representative B&O freight cars of the late steam-early diesel era while they could. Some special circumstances applied--in many cases, the cars were located scattered around the CSX system as MOW warehouses and what have you. CSX was in houscleaning mode, and due to the special relationship between the RR and the Museum, CSX generally offered the cars to the Museum gratis, transportation via hospital train direct to Mt. Clare junction included. Alternative: CSX would cut up the cars where they stood.

More often than not the Museum said "yes". As a result they have the raw materials of a number of fabulous freight trains (as well as some pretty good short restored trains on display). On the other hand, they now have one of the most impressive freight car boneyards in the preservation biz chocking the sidings out along the Mt. Clare branch.

Now, many's the time I've heard it said "take only what you can care for," and "rationalize your collection," and "deaccession."

So, what do we make of the B&O's 1990s freight car campaign? In my opinion it was the right thing to do. The cars are no worse off rusting at Mt. Clare than they were rusting at their original locations, and special circustances made it possible for the Museum to get them into the preservaiton pipeline for free.

But--there is that boneyard effect, and it's a simple reality that it'll take the Museum 40 years to get to all the backog of they're lucky.

So, did they do the right thing? You make the call.

eledbetter@rypn.org

> So, did they do the right thing? You make
> the call.

Yes and no.

B&O is fortunate in the same way the MOT is - having a very broad collection to interpret a wide range of history and technology. It is equally a curse. Fortunately both organizations have highly professional management and some real resources (relatively speaking).

The resources to care for this large collection as well as we would like to see it cared for are not inconsequential. Just dealing with basic conservation issues would eat any number of smaller museums alive.

If such collections are in fact to be preserved, it is only possible to do it well if you are a B&O, Steamtown, MOT, CSRM or IRM. The need to rationalize and deaccession is more strongly necessary in smaller, primarily volunteer directed, financially strapped mature museums who have 30 years or more backlog of neglected hulks and don't stand any reasonable chance of dealing with them and (usually) an ill-defined mission statement and collections policy, if in fact any at all.

Sure, B&O has that historic backlog but with its direction, professionalism, and corporate support it is better placed than most to do the job in the future. I believe we will be seeing the kind of quality and improvement happen there that we have been seeing at RR Museum of PA in the past decade.

Dave


irondave@bellsouth.net

> We've already lost the chance to have a
> string of USRA 2-bay hoppers behind one of
> the four surviving Reading T-1's ... there's
> no Crusader trainset left (but ALL the
> FP-7's from the RDG are saved)... we'll have
> a good-as-new Pennsy K-4 soon with hardly a
> full set of P-70's out there to restore for
> her...

The Budd Crusader cars were sold to CNR in 1962 for further service. Only the observation cars have survived. Three (900, 902, 903) of eight (900 to 907) FP-7's survive because they worked the push-pull train into the SEPTA era. The push-pull cars went to Connecticut for further service, but the locomotives were sold to two NRHS chapters.

RDG Co. T&HS is collecting RDG freight cars whenever they can get them.


Electric City Trolley Museum Association

> How many times do you see a photo frieght or
> frieght train demonstration at a museum
> where the train is made up of equipment that
> compliments the provenance of the
> locomotive?
While the Soo Line Locomotive to pull this consist isn't restored yet, Mid-Continent has restored an impressive group of cars of Soo Line heritage to run as a train. This consist is nice to see, and it will grow larger in the future, as Mid-Continent has quite a few more Soo Line heritage cars to be restored.
It would be nice to see more consists like this put together at other museums. While a lot of cars to put together these consists are gone, there are probably enough cars scattered around at various museums that could be brought together to form an impressive train behind the locomotives that have been preserved.
Many cars have been saved, but sit unrestored at museums that they don't quite fit in the collection of. If it wasn't such an expensive and logistical nightmare, it would be great to see cars (and locomotives) that belong together brought back together at appropriate museum locations.

Mid-Continent Railway Museum

ddg14@msn.com

Thanks Phil for presenting an opportunity to plug the RCT&HS!

I'm the webmaster and member of the society.

I'm currently in the middle of redesigning/upgrading the society's site:

http://www.readingrailroad.org/home.htm

Most equipment descriptions are up-to-date, but some are missing info and others need current photos.

As Phil stated, the society has a pretty large collection of rolling stock not only from the RDG, but from other anthracite roads as well.

The 903 is ours and is will some day be fully restored. (as always, any donations are greatly appreciated!)

The society is in the process of securing a permanent home which will give us the facilities to work on/house our collection.

We're hoping that the folks at Danbury will grow tired of having those Reading coaches on the property and the State of Connecticut will beg us to take them off their hands.

I was going to jump in yesterday on the previous thread about saving Amtrak relics and suggest the same thing that has been mentioned here. Utah has a great opportunity to interpret the past activities of the Ogden Union Station in a uniquely accurate manner. For those who are not familiar with the Ogden Union Station. It was leased to the city by Union Pacific Railroad for the specific purpose of housing the Utah State Railroad Museum. Through much of the twentieth century this depot was truly the gateway to the west. The depot was a constant hub of activity as many of the cities trains and an untold number of other second and third class trains were restructured each day. In the early Amtrak days the San Francisco Zephyr, Pioneer, and Desert Wind met twice daily in Ogden to distribute passengers between Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and points east to Chicago. A single car extension of the Rio Grande Zephyr also worked out of the station.

While all but two of the 14 tracks, canopied platforms and subterranean concourses have been removed. The final tracks and canopy cry out for a representative Amtrak train on one track consisting of an F40, one or two heritage fleet baggage cars (one to interpret the mail contracts the other for passengers baggage), two Am-coaches, one Am-café, and one heritage sleeper (not that this was on the Desert Wind or the Pioneer but it was an integral part of the San Francisco Zephyr experience). Track two would consist of a post war passenger train consisting of Union Pacific 4-8-4 #833 (already in the museums collection), an express box car (already in the collection), an RPO (already in the collection), a baggage car (already in the collection), a coach, a dinner, sleeper, and a business car. The museum also holds a D&RGW heavyweight dinner, a fairly complete hospital car, the Golden Spike exhibit car, and the tail car Moon Glow from the Train of Tomorrow, which I think could all be tacked onto the end of the train for interpretation. Another option could be to take the D&RGW dinner and maybe the hospital car and place them a short distance down the track behind Union Pacific 0-6-0 4436 which still has ruminants of the diaphragm buffer on its tender from its days as a switcher at a passenger terminal. One final display could be placed at the end of one track though not being displayed perfectly in context but certainly a major part of Utah’s transportation history, a Interurban motor car, and open trailer from the Saltair line. Two trailers are already in the museums collection and two stripped down motor cars are rotting out on the beaches of the Great Salt Lake. Such a display with interpretive posters throughout the trains would be a very unique and appropriate way to utilize the station and a great deal of the museums collection.

Another thought I have had as of lately stemmed from a wonderful experience I had at the CSRM several years ago. One afternoon as the CSRMÂ’s passenger trip along the river returned to the museum I had the privilege to watch them switch several of the cars around and then put the little 0-6-0 switcher to bed. As the crew dumped the fire and prepared the locomotive for a extended rest they took time to explain to us what they were doing and a little about the locomotives workings and history. It was an experience that I treasure, as I have never had such an up close and personal experience such as this at any museum or tourist railway. My though is this. I would love to see a group try to recreate a small town yard or branchline terminal. All that it would require is a yard lead that was long enough to take a small train out of the sight of the participants, a couple of yard tracks and two or three sidings off to industries. A branchline terminal may also include some sort of turning facilities for the locomotive. Ideally a real branch line terminal could be found. The concept would be to create an accurate depiction of branchline or switching operations. On operation days a train would be made up out of site and brought in to the yard cars would be spotted at their destinations and the train would then leave. The real key to all of this is that every aspect of the operation would be interpreted for the participants. They would not only watch the train moving cars around but explanations would be given on why cars were going where they were and what takes place behind the scenes to get a product from point A. to point B. The participants would get to view the train orders, see the role of the station agent, learn a little about the various industries represented along the sidings or the team track. In other words not only would the participant learn about the equipment but also what it takes to run a railroad and the role of the railroad in the community.

Shay Stark


Shays@aquaeng.com

I am going to be even more of a heretic. Unless you are riding in open window coaches behind steam, I don't think most potential riders even care what is pulling the train. I was involved with running major 600+ people fall falliage trains several years ago. We had everything from GP-18's to B40-8's pulling us and no one on board cared! They loved the view, the dining car, the snack car and the gift shop car. They loved moving between cars and feeling the "personality" in each one. The first class passengers enjoyed the luxury and the food! I would say less than half the passengers got off for the photo runby but everyone got off for the apple cider and hayrides. Because of the current downturn in mainline running, I worry how many decent passenger cars will be operable 10 years from now.

Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society
tstuy@eldcps.org

> Thanks Phil for presenting an opportunity to
> plug the RCT&HS!

> I'm the webmaster and member of the society.

> I'm currently in the middle of
> redesigning/upgrading the society's site:

> http://www.readingrailroad.org/home.htm

> Most equipment descriptions are up-to-date,
> but some are missing info and others need
> current photos.

> As Phil stated, the society has a pretty
> large collection of rolling stock not only
> from the RDG, but from other anthracite
> roads as well.

> The 903 is ours and is will some day be
> fully restored. (as always, any donations
> are greatly appreciated!)

> The society is in the process of securing a
> permanent home which will give us the
> facilities to work on/house our collection.

> We're hoping that the folks at Danbury will
> grow tired of having those Reading coaches
> on the property and the State of Connecticut
> will beg us to take them off their hands.

As a member of RCT&HS Acquisitions committee, I can tell you that our idea was to acquire one of anything that the RDG had, and we've been fairly successful. While we can't put together a whole coal train, we can put a decently representative RDG freight train together right now. And, while we have a decent collection of locos, we have quite a bit more than that.


schwartzsj@juno.com

> Three (900,
> 902, 903) of eight (900 to 907) FP-7's
> survive because they worked the push-pull
> train into the SEPTA era.

Yes, my bad. What I should have said was that all the RDG FP-7's left at the end were saved. My apologies.

> RDG Co. T&HS is collecting RDG freight
> cars whenever they can get them.

And doing a terrific job!

Rob


trains@robertjohndavis.com

Tim,

Excellent points... and a whole new thread about what kind of people those 600 were and what they want out of the experience.

Rob

> I am going to be even more of a heretic.
> Unless you are riding in open window coaches
> behind steam, I don't think most potential
> riders even care what is pulling the train.
> I was involved with running major 600+
> people fall falliage trains several years
> ago. We had everything from GP-18's to
> B40-8's pulling us and no one on board
> cared! They loved the view, the dining car,
> the snack car and the gift shop car. They
> loved moving between cars and feeling the
> "personality" in each one. The
> first class passengers enjoyed the luxury
> and the food! I would say less than half the
> passengers got off for the photo runby but
> everyone got off for the apple cider and
> hayrides. Because of the current downturn in
> mainline running, I worry how many decent
> passenger cars will be operable 10 years
> from now.


trains@robertjohndavis.com

A museum that has as its goal the preservation of certain passenger trains is the Candian Museum of Rail Travel located in Cranbrook, British Columbia. While it has added some cars outside of its original goals, these additional cars have been few and an interpretation add-on.

Orange Empire has at looked at its collection in regard to interpretating trains: A "Harriman" passenger train, a Santa Fe heavy-weight train, a Union Pacific modernized heavyweight train. For freight trains we could assemble a short representative 1915 era train, a 1920's train and a 1940 era train, and I beleive a 1960s train. Many of the cars can be used in several different era. Some of these would be without a correct locomotive. Will, you can't have everything.

Brian Norden

The RR Museum of New England has preserved much more than locomotives and cars but also the whole upper half (nearly 20 miles) of the Naugatuck RR! They operate and display their vintage trains in context on an authentic and very typical New England Branch Line, including an 1881 Brick Station, and run through classic mill towns. They've got the whole package! I would say the Naugatuck RR and the Station are their largest artifacts!

A similiar situation exists at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum where we have preserved an authentic Pittsburgh Railways Interurban Line. Yes, we have preserved the trolleys, but also have put great effort into restoring the trolley line with all the accessories: signals, feeder wire, enameled car stop signs, and wooden wayside waiting shelters. All done to original Pittsburgh Railways specifications. As Musuems, I think we have a duty to try to put these artifacts in their authentic operating environment when at all possible. Thus the visitor gets the full picture.

Pennsylvania Trolley Museum
sbecker@pa-trolley.org

At South Simcoe Railway, we have a matching set of 6 former Canadian Pacific heavyweight day coaches and 2 former Canadian National combines.

We also have enough 40's-era freight equipment to make up a decent-sized branchline freight train.