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 Post subject: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4773
Location: Maine
I purchased a copy of Staufer's "C&O Power" off eBay, receiving it today. The seller had placed several black and white prints inside the book when he shipped it, for which I am grateful. Two of the prints were of Greenbriar 611, which we know as Ross Rowland's 614, today. She is described in the text as rusting away in Russell Yard (publication date is 1965). On the print, labelled as Russell, Ky., 1956, one can clearly discern the chiseled number plate, where C&O made room for some RF&P Northerns in their fleet.
I don't know if these have been published before, but I thought at least one browser of this forum would find them of interest.

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:42 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Thanks, Richard, as one of at least two strong 614 fans (the other being Ross Rowland himself), I do appreciate these shots, and do not recall having seen them before, either.

Observations:

It's interesting to note that the 614 is missing its Hancock exhaust steam injector at this time, and that it has been replaced with that big Nathan 4000 (?) injector under the cab. The bracket for the Hancock is quite visible in front of the trailing truck (it's an integral part of the cast trailer frame under this series, which also had the main air reservoir cast in the main engine bed as well)(Correction: the bracket is part of the main engine bed). Equally interesting is the live steam pipe to the Nathan injector, running under a custom fabricated pipe jacket from the turret down to running board level, where it becomes and exposed lagged pipe. That bit of running the pipe on the outside of the main boiler jacket looks like a cheapo plumbing job compared to what would normally have been done on this and other roads, but then steam was very much on the way out at the time.

Lots of details for the modeler types, including a missing low water alarm (or at least part of the cover over it), all sorts of lubrication lines, the big live steam line to the booster engine, the mufflers for the turbogenerators just ahead of the low water alarm rodding, the left side turbogenerator itself between drivers 3 and 4, the work light on top of the same generator, the big aluminum cab with all those windows, weathering patterns, and other things I could just go on about.

Overall, isn't she still a beauty, in spite of the rust and grime?

(A Pennsy K4s? What's so special about that? Hey, just kidding. . .)

And aren't we glad the streamlined jacket she was supposed to wear was cancelled? It was supposed to look something like what is on the 490 today in the B&O Museum. Oh, the horror, the horror. . .

Hope you enjoy the book, Richard.


Last edited by J3a-614 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:16 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
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Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
Boy she sure looks forlorn sitting there in Russell all those years ago. Who could have guessed that her best years lied ahead not behind!!

Never say never.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:14 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
She doesn't look too badly to my eyes in these shots. Evidently, C&O wasn't quite certain they were done with the locomotive lined up at Russell, in 1956. I continue to wait for the change that signal her chance to bellow through coal country once more.

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
The C&O held all steam locomotives destined for donation, or held in the railroad's own historical collection at Russell, KY. I think most were stored outside, though the 490 got to live in the roundhouse.

In the 1970s, I think the mid to late 1970s, 2 K-4 class 2-8-4s were cut up, having not found new homes, as well as a K-2 class 2-8-2, which is a real shame, as no C&O 2-8-2s survived.

I have slides of the 2-8-4s being cut up, as well as the 490 in the roundhouse. A friend of mine took them and gave them to me. One of these days, I'll get a slide scanner.

As a side note, why did 614/611 loose her exhaust steam injector? What kind of feedater system did she have?

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
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Location: South Carolina
wilkinsd wrote:
As a side note, why did 614/611 loose her exhaust steam injector? What kind of feedater system did she have?


IIRC it was a Hancock feedwater heater, and was used on only a few models of steam locomotives. My understanding was that the Hancock was difficult to find parts for, even by the mid-1950's. When the 614 was pulled out of retirement for coal train service, the Hanock system was replaced by an injector.

I'm sure Ross or someone else has better information.

Edit- a little more information on the system can be found here: http://www.co614.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/THEOUTSTANDINGFEATURESANDMANYLIVESOFC.pdf

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Last edited by whodom on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4773
Location: Maine
Sad as it may be, I would love to see those slide images. While any truly "preserved" steam is good in my reference, losing the Mike was a true loss. From what I understand, and from visiting the Kanawha at the B&O Museum, those remaining locomotives were pretty severely scavenged for parts and souvenirs, and heavily rusted through.
My guess is that 614 was in similar condition when she was brought to Baltimore.

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:34 pm 
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co614 wrote:
Boy she sure looks forlorn sitting there in Russell all those years ago.
I don't have my copy with me right now, but didn't Ron Ziel's "Twilight of Steam Locomotives," mention 611/614 on a photo caption, but not exactly by #?

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:51 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2732
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
whodom wrote:
wilkinsd wrote:
As a side note, why did 614/611 loose her exhaust steam injector? What kind of feedater system did she have?


IIRC it was a Hancock feedwater heater, and was used on only a few models of steam locomotives. My understanding was that the Hancock was difficult to find parts for, even by the mid-1950's. When the 614 was pulled out of retirement for coal train service, the Hanock system was replaced by an injector.

I'm sure Ross or someone else has better information.

Edit- a little more information on the system can be found here: http://www.co614.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/THEOUTSTANDINGFEATURESANDMANYLIVESOFC.pdf


Very interesting! Thank you sir!

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 2701
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY
Over the years since I acquired her in 1979 I've been told different reasons why the C&O replaced the feedwater system with a second Nathan 4000 injector.

To me the most plausible is that the feedwater system frequently went on the fritz and they almost never had issues with the injectors??

I can report that our experience to date is that the Nathans do a wonderful job and even when we were doing the maximum tonnage coal runs in 1985 they were fully capable ( and then some) of keeping up with the steaming rate.

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
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Location: South Carolina
Ross- have you ever given any thought to retrofitting 614 with a Worthington SA (or Chinese copy)? GCRR has done this to their 2 operable locomotives and TVRM's doing it to 4501. Of course, there may not be room on the smokebox in front of the smokestack to install one on 614.

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
whodom wrote:
Ross- have you ever given any thought to retrofitting 614 with a Worthington SA (or Chinese copy)? GCRR has done this to their 2 operable locomotives and TVRM's doing it to 4501. Of course, there may not be room on the smokebox in front of the smokestack to install one on 614.


It's an interesting suggestion, given the improved efficiencies of the Worthington system. I wonder how it would improve 614's operation, and fuel consumption.

Plus, you have the perfect place the mount the cold water pump.....

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
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Location: South Carolina
wilkinsd wrote:
It's an interesting suggestion, given the improved efficiencies of the Worthington system. I wonder how it would improve 614's operation, and fuel consumption.

Plus, you have the perfect place the mount the cold water pump.....


IIRC, the figure usually tossed around during steam was around 10% improvement in power and fuel consumption, plus reduced boiler maintenance as the open feedwater heater helped de-oxygenate the feedwater prior to its introduction to the boiler.

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3971
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Some other photos of 614:

On the wye at Martinsburg, the bracket for the Hancock exhaust steam injector is empty in this shot; the hose reel will come later:

http://www.ebpm.com/rr/bigpix/fan_rrsteam044.html

B-I-G image very clearly showing the bracket and the hose reel:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ve_-_5.JPG

Gotta go, for a musician my wife has the worst sense of timing for needing something done. . .


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 611 images
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:14 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3971
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Back again--this time with photos of the 614 and other engines wearing their Hancock injectors, all courtesy of the C&O Historical Society:

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... s-1418.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... s-2310.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... s-1417.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... -16004.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... -16268.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... -24225.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... -21056.jpg

I have to say it's unfortunate the system may not have worked well; visually, it looks impressive with all that plumbing. Wonder what all was involved with it; ironically, it looks like it had a turbine-driven pump as part of the equipment, reducing the claim of "simplicity" for such a device.

The J3as had quite a few changes compared with their predecessor J-3s. These included all the aluminum used, the unusual injectors, all those roller bearings, and the use of circulators instead of syphons in the firebox. The use of aluminum, the injectors, and the syphons were at least partially to reduce the weight to where the engines could run on the James River viaduct in Richmond, which apparently had restrictions on it until it was rebuilt in the 1950s. It's my understanding that the K4s (2-8-4 on the C&O) were prohibited from the viaduct, while the J3as were not, despite the J3as being somewhat larger, which says something about the importance of axle loadings and how the extra axle of a 4-wheel lead truck must have helped.


Last edited by J3a-614 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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