A recent post on the RYPN interchange about the fire at the RJ Corman engine house in Guthire, KY prompted some interesting reactions that got me thinking. The blaze was reported to have engulfed a few EMD locomotives, one of which was an ex Penn Central GP38.

I was not moved to write this by what was said, rather I was struck by what wasn't.

There weren't many tears shed for that lowly GP38. Just another 45 year old EMD. But what if it was a C-425 of similar vintage? Would the response be as ho-hum about that? I doubt it.

Despite losing all but one E7 ever built and having only a precious few FT's or F3's still with us, railfans and preservationists still have little love for the common EMD other than the F7/9.

I think it is human nature to be fascinated by the underdog, and many of us with interest in machines are drawn to those with the greatest aesthetic appeal. Right there, the GM-built GP38 loses out to the ALCO C-425 by a score of 0-2. Throw in the passionate, devoted chorus who find ALCOs to be superior machines despite their market failure (right or wrong, I am not to judge), and the poor GP38 doesn't stand a chance of getting much love. This despite TRAINS magazine naming a GP38 the "All American Diesel."

It is true that a handful of '38's have made it to museums and tourist roads (and some in fantastically appropriate places like TRAINS celebrity B&O #3802 in Baltimore and MEC #252 in North Conway).

It is also true that we still lose much older and more beloved F units and RS units each year. There are quite a few of these models that need "forever homes." Why bother with Geeps when these classics are still getting torched?

If past history were the only indicator, one could reasonably think that just like the RS3 did, the GP38 will soldier on in decent numbers until age 55 or more. That would suggest there is plenty of time to save some.

Yet, the EMD's of the 1950-80's era have something older ALCOs and GEs do not: value. General reliability and easy access to parts gave them a head start for longevity, but the trend of "new build" eco-friendly locomotives built upon existing frames and components of older EMD's has greatly reduced their chances of surviving intact. A cursory look at the number of GP9's reduced to frame donors (deep in the preservation era) reveals the truth. There is good reason to expect the 3rd or 4th remanufacturing of GP38s will result in frame-only preservation.

It wasn't a C-425 or even a U18B reportedly crisped in Kentucky. I'm sure either would have elicited some emotional response. It was a GP38. A winner. A representative of one of the most successful locomotives in American railroad. And the news brought little outcry to drown out a mighty "ho-hum" of apathy.

Poor GP38. A victim of success.

When you compare how many hundreds of GP38s are still working for their class 1 owners to the number of Alco Century Series locomotives that are extant, you're not going to convince many people to mourn the loss of that unit.

If the same incident had happened on the Apache or A&M, your sentiments would be echoed by many.

Understood Gerald, but that's also my point. There are many now (though how many are left from the early production years is something I have not counted), but when does the peg move from common to "oh no?"

Starting to think about it now may help the GP38 avoid becoming the next E7.

With much appreciation for your EMD "saves,"

Rob

I tend to think about suppose this fire was at the NKP Bellevue Roundhouse with many NKP steamers inside...timewarp to today, now think. R. J. Corman built this unique shop building, now its ashes. ho hum they say. I keep websearching for more stories on the fire and barely nothing new crops up. Low interest, apathy.

Robert;

"Throw in the passionate, devoted chorus who find ALCOs to be superior machines despite their market failure (they are the true believers, like Tesla fans who damn Edison)"

You do know that today's electrical system (~220 volt AC) is based on the system that Tesla invented which became the successful approach ? Edison's DC system suffered "market failure".

Edison is more well known today, but "back in the day" they where both public figures.

They (Tesla and Edison) where both very sharp, but the market picked Tesla's solution because it simply worked better.

Cheers, Kevin (Tesla and Edison fan)

Good point, Kevin. I was thinking more of the "fame" factor, perhaps my analogy needs sharpening.

Edit: Change made, thanks for the feedback, Kevin.

Rob

Preservation has always had a large element of emotion despite all the professionals in the field telling us museum types to forget your emotions. Always been that way, always will be. Hence the dirt common GP38 loses out to (fill in your favorite minority model) simply because it fails to stir the emotions.

How many non -2 GP38s are still working? I'm guessing very, very few.

There are lots of GP38-2s out there, sure, but pure 38s?

This is precisely the mindset that has resulted in only a single E7 left in the world.

One railroad to which the GP38 is significant: The Pennsy-Reading Seashore Lines. As I recall, a couple of them were enlarged-cab, and a couple of those ended up out west on the Eureka Southern. Former PRSL 2007 and 2008 from EUSO were last reportedly on the Dakota, Minnesota & Eastern as 3800/3801. Several went to the Bangor & Aroostook and then to Web Asset Management leaser service; 2001 was kitbashed into a Pandrol-Jackson power loco; 2000 went to Iowa Southern, North Louisiana & Gulf, and then GMTX 2080. Probably too late for SMS to add a PRSL GP38 to their fleet by now.......

Comparing NKP's Bellevue, Ohio roundhouse, with a four track, metal frame short line locomotive shed in southern Kentucky is a bit overwrought, don't you think?

How many non -2 GP38s are still working? I'm guessing very, very few.

Mechanically, GP38s and GP38-2s are identical. The technological leap to the dash 2 level was an electrical upgrade. My "SD40-2" was built as an SD40. Morrison-Knudsen upgraded the electrical cabinet with the dash 2 gear, but to me and the =Wild Mary= faithful, 7471 will ALWAYS be an SD40.

There are lots of GP38-2s out there, sure, but pure 38s?
There were over 700 GP38s built. With some web surfing and diligence, the purists among us can surely locate and identify those which have not been modified.

This is precisely the mindset that has resulted in only a single E7 left in the world.
No, the mindset that created the single E7 was when everybody sat around waiting for somebody else to do it, complicated by the aforementioned mentality at EMD which did not want surplus used locomotives getting back into the locomotive economy.

The mindset which will create the dearth of GP38s, and every other 4 axle model ever built, is the green-inspired genset business.

If you can create a dash 2 from a platform, you can also uncreate it and return it to its original configuration . . . if and only if it is important enough to those of you that moan about there not being any _____________(fill in the blank) left.

To make this even more ridiculous, consider this:

There were (are) GP38s, GP38ACs, and GP38-2s.

In terms of interpretation, significance, relevance, etc., and recognizing the unavoidable truth (you can't save everything), what do you do? How do you sort them out?

Better yet, do you need to sort them out? Does anyone realistically foresee a museum having one of each sitting side-by-side and trying to meaningfully explain the differences?

Externally, the GP38 and GP38AC are identical, and they were built about the same time.
Internally, the difference is in the AR10 and some wiring differences in the GP38AC. None of which is visible or even meaningful unless you tear it apart for exhibit.

The GP38-2 has a couple of minor externally visible differences from the other two, the most visible being the water level window and the class light knockouts on the rear of the long hood. Big woo. The main difference is in the high-voltage cabinet, with the module cards.

And of course, some of each model got the boxes for fiberglass air filters. And some of each model had dynamic brakes.


Where was all this angst when there was still the ability to save another FT A and B, to make a complete A-B-B-A set of this landmark locomotive?

Exactly! That's why I am throwing some angst on the fire now. :-)

wm303 echoed my point about frame-up rebuilds, which is the driving factor in why it is time to think about common EMD's now. Given where things are headed, B&O #3802 may be the only GP38 left in any condition close to what a GP38 was. Maybe that's enough, maybe it is not. It depends upon what you are trying to interpret.

I can easily picture a scenario in 20 years of my son saying to me, "Pops, lets go on the photo charter at SoAndSo Railway museum this weekend. It is a 1970's photo freight with three '38's fully repainted in LV red! There are even going to be Chargers and Mustangs posed for scenes and actors with authentic battery lanterns!"

Rob

My point is this: if I were trying to build a museum with 60s diesels, I couldn't include a GP38-2. It'd like saying that an EA and an E6 are the same. They may share a similar carbody, but it's not the same thing.

And even being able to "unrebuild" something isn't a great solution. The more work that has been done, the less original historic fabric remains.

Where does the line get drawn? Would someone interested in an RSD12 really be happy that the Conrail MT6s (or whatever NS calls them now) are still around? There'd be a LOT of work to turn one of those back into an RSD...

Is it all a matter of degree?

Is appearance the only thing that matters?

Actually, SMS does have a PRSL GP38. SLRS 2003 is the former PRSL 2003. It has been rebuilt to GP38-3 standards, and now has Dynamic brakes, but it is former PRSL and on SMS.