We're starting to overhaul trucks from our two cars which started life as D&RGW boxcars (narrow gauge). Called Hooper in Baltimore about pads and they can make some, but didn't know what size to tell them.

The journals are 4x7 and measuring the interior of the box, it appears a pad of 6x8 x 3-1/2 inches thick would be about right, but was wondering if anybody else with D&RGW narrow gauge equipment would happen to know the "official" pad size.

Thanks,
Mark
ET&WNC RR at Doe River Gorge
Hampton, TN

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28252&p=152873&hilit=narrow+gauge+journal#p152873

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31747&p=161205&hilit=4x7#p161205

Thats a couple of the old posts, there are many on here, just search 4" x 7" or 4 x 7 or narrow gauge journal, and you will find them.

The MCB had the 4"x7" as a standard way back in about 1875 or around there, and they were delivered on new rollingstock sometime past 1900. The D&RGW cast replacements as late as the 1990's.

The 4"x7" was replaced by the later MCB/AAR 3+3/4" x7", which will fit in the same journal box. The larger 4+1/4" x 8" jpurnal and bearing wi also fit that box. Those are all called the "B" sized journal box.

The next size up is the 5x9 and thats the C box.

The D&S and C&TS have two (or maybe even three) types of beaings, the "Muelie" type, that the D&S will not use over the road, and the later MCB/AAR types that they prefere. If your axles has no end collar on it, its the Muellie type. If your axle has a collar on the end, its for one of the later MCB/AAR types, but could still be 4"x7".

The D&RGW (at Durango) had 4"x7" bearings cast to the later AAR specs, but they were built to the older size, having an additional 1/4" of dia. to make them a full 4" in dia.

My advice, is if you have the Muelie tope, you are stuck with it, get anew bearing cast.

It you have a collar on the end of that axles, either machine the axle down to take one of the later 3+3/4" x 7" journal bearings and use that, or just type the bearing, as the journal might be worn enough for a new bearing (of 3+3/4"x7") to fit without machiningg.

One of the mechanics at the C&TS told me that often the 3+3/4 dia bearing would fit on the old 4" journals, as they did wear and got smaller over time, so the older they got the easier it ws to use a new 3+3/4" bearing on them.

Hope this helps. There are photos of the 4"x7" Muelie type on the net, here and there. The NGDF has some and I have some info somwhere on the "B" boxes and those old beairngs.

Pads, Loco, not journal brasses.

SOP for over 100 years was to to pack the journal boxes with waste - done correctly it will last for a very long time on your operation, provided the seals in the box are good and you keep water and dirt out of the boxes. Pads are a relatively recent development, and they also work very well, but if you can't find them the old way will work fine. there's a recent thread on where to buy waste packing, and some older threads on making pads.

dave

I would try contacting the Georgetown Loop Railroad in Colorado. They still use cars that have the 4x7 bearings. That said, the waste packing will work AOK, the D&RGW used it right up to the end of narrow gauge freight operations in 1968.


Do you have any photos or history of the cars you have that you could post?



Jason Midyette

Never mind my bable!

Yes, we have cotton waste in the first truck completed, but is a bit of a pain and mess to pack. So we'd like to get some pads and just wanted to verify the size.

Seals were mentioned. What and where are these? Have not seen anything in our trucks that looks like a seal.

Thanks,
Mark

The seals referred to fit into a slot in the back of the box. On more modern trucks they actually contained a rubber lip type seal or one made of felt. The idea was to seal the box around the axle to keep dirt out and help keep the oil in. Some journal lids had rubber seals on them for the same purpose.

I have not seen anything that elaborate on the narrow gauge trucks I have dealt with. What I have seen is a wood or plywood plate that will just slide into the slot in the box with a hole cut in it that is a close fit around the axle collar. There also should be a larger square stick that fits snugly into the top of the slot and is sealed with tar to keep water from running into the top of the box.

There are two types of waste commonly used by railroads. Cotton waste is used as wiping rags. The best type for journal packing is wool waste. It has more "body" and will hold up much longer. The cotton waste will pack down into a gelatinous blob after a while and no longer touch the axle.

Wool waste is getting very difficult to find and is somewhat expensive when you can get it.

Of course, no matter what type of packing you end up using, it should be pre-soaked in journal oil for several days before installing it into the journal box.

Back when I was following the Association of American Railroad's Interchange Rules and buying journal pads from Hennesey Co. (I liked their stuffed pillow style better than Atlas' blocks of foam style), they were sold by journal diameter. Earlier replies about type B journal boxes taking 3 sizes of bearings make me wonder if an "8 inch" pad is what you need. The A.A.R. rules in the 1980s allowed substitution of 9 inch pads in 8 inch boxes, if necessary. Now to find the dimensions of the pad that you are trying to copy, remembering that different manufacturer's proprietary designs were of different shapes.

OK, yeah, many of ours have some wood in the back, about half inch thick. So the hole in the wood should be just barely big enough for the axles then?

So what about pad sizes? Getting lots of good info on waste, but I'd like to do pads. D&RGW may have used waste for a long time, but the overhauled truck had (what was left of) pads in them and it would be helpful to verify the spec size to get new ones.

PS:
Someone was asking about the history of these cars. We have two that came from Six Flags in Atlanta in early 2001 and were told they'd originally been boxcars. They'd been converted to open cars with benches. We had to rebuild them extensively due to much rot in the frames. We also have trucks only from a third Six Flags car.

We also have on property the remains of 6 other D&RGW cars that have been built up as two generic boxcars for storage, two passenger form factor cars as snackshop and restrooms and two open cars with awnings for picnic table space. These had been brought in for the amusement park that was started on the Doe River property back in the 1960s, but I know no other details as to their original car types or numbers. Most of the original cars are gone other than the trucks and in some cases brake rigging and couplers.

I believe the proper name for this part is dust guard.

From the 1922 Car Builder's Cyclopedia:

"Dust Guard. A thin piece of wood, leather, felt, asbestos or other material inserted in the dust guard chamber at the back of a journal box, and fitting closely around the dust guard bearing of the axle. Its purpose is to exclude dust and to prevent the escape of oil and waste. Sometimes called axle packing or box packing. See also DUST DEFLECTOR. Fig. 1521."

You can make a dust seal that takes an over-the-counter seal from some industral bearing.

The back material should be rigid enough to hold onto the seal and allow the whole assembly to float up and down, and slightly left and right, in the journal box slot.

It will not work like the true AAR one-oiece rubber dust seals, becasue those sealed the lube oil inside the journal box by sealing the slot, but your rigged up seal would keep the dust out.

When I was at the loop in 08 and 09, we rebuilt several of those trucks...
We used a piece of rubber.... old conveyor belt if I remember right.....glued with hot glue to a thin plywood board, with the hole in the rubber trimmed to just slightly rub on the axle....
This gave a good seal that was stiff enough to not get deformed during assembly and operation.