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Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37093		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  rlsteam [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Someone sent me this image of a Pyle National headlight that was acquired 55 or 60 years ago from the Erie-Lackawanna in Scranton, asking to track down whatever locomotive it came from. As far as I can tell neither the Erie nor the DL&W had steam locomotives numbered in the 1300s, but the lettering style matches that of the DL&W which also used the Pyle National headlight. I found one image online of an E-L wedge plow numbered 1309 with a Pyle National headlight, so my best guess is that this headlight was from a plow or some other piece of maintenance equipment (maybe a spreader) that was a holdover from the DL&W and kept its number in the E-L merger. I couldn't find any online information about E-L maintenance equipment so I though I would run the photo by this forum to see whether anyone has a lead on more information.

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Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Richard -

Well, the Erie actually did have 25 locomotives with road numbers 1308-1332. The problem is that these were H-6 class Consolidations built by Baldwin back in 1890. Did 2-8-0 #1320 last long enough on the Erie to get an electric headlight? Have no idea, but I guess there is that possibility. Perhaps when the engine was eventually scrapped, the headlight ended up on a roof of an Erie structure somewhere providing light, which means that there would have been no reason to change the number boards. I'm not saying that's what happened, but just not out of the realm of possibility. Anyway, hope you find out the actual heritage of the wonderful headlight. Sure wish I had it to put in my railroad room!

Les
Author:  rlsteam [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Thanks, Les, I had no information about Erie or Lackawanna locomotives built before 1900, since I was using Drury's book. It appears, from photos I can find, that the Erie also used the Pyle National headlight and had a similar lettering style. However, it would seem the Scranton origin of the headlight, if authentic, favors the Lackawanna. Any E-L aficionado (I'm more into NYC, as you can judge by my avatar) is welcome to chime in.
Author:  Mike Tillger [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
I do not believe the number is original to the headlight, perhaps it is a Lackawana MU headlight with someone's favorite locomotive number.
Mike Tillger
Author:  Scranton Yard [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
I had the same thought as Mike but he thinks and types much faster than I can.

I looked at some photos of DL&W steam having a headlight with a similar profile that show the headlight lettering clearly and was able to find some good "0", "3", and "1" examples. The font is close to what is shown in your pic but all have more line thickness at the bottom and the top.
Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Les Beckman wrote:
Richard -

Well, the Erie actually did have 25 locomotives with road numbers 1308-1332. The problem is that these were H-6 class Consolidations built by Baldwin back in 1890. Did 2-8-0 #1320 last long enough on the Erie to get an electric headlight? Have no idea, but I guess there is that possibility.

Les


Richard -

I did a bit of additional checking on these Erie H-6 Consolidations. First of all, they were built as Camelbacks and had 50" drivers for heavy freight service. Later the Erie rebuilt them with rear cabs set OVER their wide fireboxes. Talk about ugly! (Of course, as I have said before, there is no such thing as an ugly steam locomotive, only ones with "character".) Anyhow, the idea behind the move of the cab off of the boiler to the rear was so that the engines could then be transferred to switching service, probably due to their small drivers. The two photos I have seen of them are in the "Erie Power" book by Fred Westing and Al Staufer both show the engines with the original box type headlights, perhaps retrofitted for electricity. Neither of those engines is number 1320 however, so there still is the chance that 1320 got this particular "modern" electric headlight.

Looking at other Erie steamers, the headlight certainly looks like it could have come off of an Erie locomotive. I am not that familiar with DL&W power, so can't address that aspect. I also think that the number board(s) certainly could have been changed. Perhaps a house number of the owner, or something like that. I've looked at photos in the Westing/Staufer book and also photos taken by Robert F. Collins and can't really see well enough to determine if the fount shown is authentic Erie. Hope someone from the ELHS can chime in.

Les
Author:  CREEPING DEATH [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Not sure if it's helpful, but 1320 is the number of feet in a 1/4 mile...

CD
Author:  rlsteam [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
The person who sent me the photo implied that the headlight came from an E-L facility in Scranton, not from a private source. I considered the Lackawanna's MU units but they weren't numbered in the 1300s. I am still leaning toward the idea of some kind of maintenance equipment, rather than a locomotive, but have no source for information about unit numbers for E-L (or predecessors) plows, spreaders, etc. other than the one photo I found in Railfan.net ABPR Collections Archive of E-L wedge plow 1309.
Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Richard -

One way to probably tell if the numberboard is an authentic railroad item (DL&W or Erie) would be to remove it and look at it from the side. I believe that these glass boards were layered with an all white background and then the numbers (in this case 1320) placed over a plain glass that was then painted black, the numbers then actually being "clear glass" and the white showing through. Maybe my idea on this is wrong and someone could quickly set me straight. BUT, if this is the way that the railroads actually did do it, then white numbers simply painted on a black background would indicate that it was done later, by a non-railroad source. Of course in your case, you are strictly going by the photo sent to you, so can't check this idea out. You may be right about the headlight being from a piece of MofW equipment on the DL&W, but you need someone that could actually confirm that, and there is probably someone out there who knows the answer.

Les
Author:  Loco112 [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
The Pyle-National with the cast alluminum tapered case was a new design in about 1925, so its a post 1924 design. The earliest date I've seen a locomotive built that had that light on it was 1925.

If that steel box under the light was the actual base for the headlight, that is your clue. Its very unique for a headlight base. It would look more appropriat on the level rear deck of a tender facing rearward.
Author:  rlsteam [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Thanks for that info. I thought of a tender, but since I couldn't find locomotives in the 1300 series I didn't pursue that idea. How about a tender for some other piece of equipment, like a "big hook"?
Author:  wesp [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Maybe this headlight and numbering is a match? E-L wedge plow 1305.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/el1305.jpg

Wesley
Author:  joe6167 [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
Does the headlight have the original Pyle National makers tag on it? There might be a railroad name or serial number stamped on it.
Author:  colfaxstation [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
I believe the MU headlights had a curve to the rear. We've got one at the Colfax RR Museum and I remember that it's curved.
Herb Sakalaucks
Author:  John Redden [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for ID of a (probably) Former DL&W Headlight
The EL Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment (DeYoung, Morning Sun Books), shows several Erie Lackawanna snow-fighting pieces in the low 1300 series (wedge plows, spreaders, and a flanger). The closest number that is illustrated in the book is a flanger, built from a steel boxcar, numbered EL 1319. This one does have a headlight, but it does not resemble the one in the photo. It appears to be a single sealed-beam type, similar in appearance to a modern ditch light assembly.

Apparently none of the cranes were numbered in the 1300 series. There is a good book out, on EL wreck train equipment by Ron Dukarm, published by the ELHS. None of the cranes or tenders appear to have had numbers in that series, either before or after the EL merger.

JR
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