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| Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37277 |
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| Author: | PCook [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
An interesting question came up regarding Detroit Diesel's recommendations for lubricating oils for their 2-stroke cycle engines in railroad service. Here are the results of reviewing some reference materials: Per pages 2-2 and 2-3 of Detroit Diesel 7SE270-0510, railroad applications of the 2-stroke cycle Detroit Diesels are a "Type 4" service, and the recommended oils are low-zinc, low-phosphorus, high TBN nominal 50W viscosity. For colder weather service 40W oils are recommended down to 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Specifically see footnote #4 on page 2-3 of the specification. However, for service that may go below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, Detroit Diesel references the use of 15W-40 oils in footnote #4, matching the specifications for many other light and medium duty automotive Diesel engines. These oils generally have a higher Zinc concentrations indicating the use of ZDP type additive packages. Those using Detroit Diesel engines in railroad applications might want to request a copy of specification 7SE270-0510 from the manufacturer. PC |
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| Author: | Pegasuspinto [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
Most 15-40 oils will be devoid of zinc at this point. Here is the technical document for all fluids for all DD engines- http://www.mtu-online.com/fileadmin/fm-dam/mtu-global/technical-info/fluids_and_lubricants_specifications/A001061_35E.pdf Paraphrased- always use CH-4 oil, certainly never CJ spec. The correct oils will have Detroit series 53/71/92/149 on the label. These older spec oils are being manufactured almost exclusively for the 2 stroke detroits so if your engine isn't listed on the back, you probably have the wrong oil. Generally- 50w straight is preferred, and required if your engine is being run hard and hot (close to it's horsepower limit and/or high ambient temps) 40w straight is fine in more normal temps and can help cold starting. 30W and/or 15-40 is generally only allowed for extreme cold temps and very short duration running. One of the older documents said that 30 or 15-40 might be OK for something like a drawbridge engine that only runs a couple minutes at a time. That document made it plain that for most instances, you should run 40 in those temps and use engine oil and coolant heat to get it started. Detroit has updated the specs since many manuals were printed but they haven't been updated much in the last 15 years since these engines aren't current production. But one thing that is clear is that multigrade oil won't stand up to the shear forces from the cylinder rings when the engine is at full operational temps.... Robert |
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| Author: | mjanssen [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
I have worked-on and operated DD 2 cycle diesels for more than 20 years. Chevron Delo 100 SAE 40 is what you want to use for road/highway service - 30W if it is really cold. I can see 50W for some RR motive power applications (not track equipment.) The oil control rings are barbed (for lack of a better term) to scrape the oil back into the crankcase and are rather delicate. The heavier oil is what you need to give them the right operating conditions. In highway (truck) service, 15w40 leads to high oil consumption and with hard running is a recipe to seize the rings and many times I have seen it push liners out-even on non-turbo engines. Sometimes it is possible to put 40W into an engine that has run multigrade and the oil consumption will go back down. These days Federal Mogul has about the best parts you can get. Even then, you need to measure everything. Good liner to block bore contact (on applicable Series) is also key to ring life. |
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| Author: | CREEPING DEATH [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
You want CF-2, and never CF-4! The C*-2 has a vastly different additive package than the C*-4 oils, and the two-stroke engines have vastly different needs than 4-stroke. The older 15-40 oils were rated for 2-stroke and 4-stroke engines, this is why the DD literature mentions them. By the way, C=Compression, F=series (started with A), 2/4=stroke cycle. CD |
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| Author: | Pegasuspinto [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
Picking deeper into the documents, it's getting tricky. http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/MOM_GUIDE_ENGLISH_2013.pdf From what I can tell, these products meet detroit 2 cycle specs- Rotella T1> http://www.shell.com/rotella/products/t1.html Mobil Delvac 1600 series> http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLUSENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1600_Monogrades.aspx I can't find any oil from Chevron made for 2 cycle engines at all. 100 seems to be out of production? But there is likely a Chevron product as well as products from other suppliers still available. People in areas with commercial marine interests should be OK to check with a large local oil supplier. Others should review the oil documentation carefully and make sure it's suitable. Same as in steam locomotives, the oil you need may not be made anymore one day. 2 strokes are out of production, and just shy of completely off the highways. In the commercial world, they are fast disappearing-they are either being phased out due to age of the installation (for instance, standby generator applications or old boats, etc), or worn out and finally replaced with new engines rather then rebuilt. Tier 4 and other smog laws are catching up to them as well. The 'good' news is that they will probably be OK in preservation use with multigrades, as they won't get the high hours high stress use they might of seen in original service. But as long as we can get the right oil, we should use it. BTW-API C is Commercial and S is Standard. Not compression and spark ;) |
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| Author: | mjanssen [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
Delo 100 is in production and available from O'Reilly Auto Parts and your local oil distributor. I have bought about 20 gallons this year. I am going to be brand specific here because I care about these engines. Buy Chevron Delo 100- see spec: https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=77106&docFormat=PDF If you are in a pinch, you can use Shell Rotella T-1 40W. The ash content is higher and it does not meet Series 149 spec. http://www.shell.com/rotella/products/t1.html That's all there is that works. Read the forums for the coach clubs. See this excellent explanation: http://www.tejascoach.com/tips.html |
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| Author: | CREEPING DEATH [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/searc ... ron&mc=CHV CD |
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| Author: | Pegasuspinto [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
mjanssen wrote: That's all there is that works. Read the forums for the coach clubs. See this excellent explanation: http://www.tejascoach.com/tips.html Individual end user groups like this are the worst source for this kind of information on the planet. You have dozens of 'study groups' with a sample size of 1 and no commonality. If someone pours a jug of Rotella in their engine and it blows up a month later, they are likely to swear Rotella blew up their engine, even if they had a slap wore out motor running 10 PSI oil pressure at full RPM. And I wonder how many use them right-Detroits are well known for needing to be run hard (The ol' timers said to run them mad....slam you hand in the door before you go and run them like you hate them)... when you have them at RPM they are LOUD and sound like they are well past redline, to the untrained ear, so many won't run them like they should be. |
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| Author: | ATK [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
Just to clarify something on the Chevron products -- Delo 100 is for 2-cycle engines and Delo 400 can be used in 4-cycle engines only? |
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| Author: | Pegasuspinto [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
basically but you need to be cautious in that oils specd for modern engines may not have what an older engine needs-IE, most older 4 stroke diesels use 15-40 'diesel' oil, as do new ones. But they have been pushing the ZDDP additive lower and lower. ZDDP helps with metal-on-metal surfaces-like flat tappet cams. Other additives are changing too. New oil AND fuel changes to meet the demands of new emissions. http://www.deloperformance.com/products/engine-oils.aspx Notice they are ALL Delo 400, but there is an oil for post 2007, and pre 2007, engines. You will find similar in all major lines of oils. Fuel is another issue, you might want to add a lubricity additive to your fuel, you can ONLY get Ultra-Low-Sulpher-Diesel, ULSD, you simply can't buy older type diesel. (Some folks think dyed off road diesel is not ULSD-that was the case during the transition years but now it's all the same except the dye added to the non-tax tank). I'm sure you can get some strong opinions on which fuel additive is best but I've had good luck with the Power Service in the grey bottle. |
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| Author: | ATK [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
OK. My main concern is what the best quality oil product I can use in a pair of 6-110 series engines (Budd RDC car). If the Delo 100 product is the best for this application, than that's what I'm going to try and source. |
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| Author: | robertmacdowell [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
Beg pardon but hasn't motor oil improved by leaps and bounds over the decades? Not least, synthetic oils. The notion that the best oil for the engine is the same oil from 1950 seems absurd. |
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| Author: | Pegasuspinto [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
Oils have improved tons, and these oils we are talking about ARE the latest and greatest available for the application, at least the tested ones. These engines are detroit 2 strokes, and have a LONG piston with 2 sets of rings-one set seals the compression, the other set seals the crankcase from the intake ports. Having the right kind of oil to keep the rings lubricated is essential. I suspect that a properly specd modern synthetic multigrade could perform as well if not better then an older spec single grade, but these engines are out of production, and there is no incentive for the manufacturer to perform the engineering and testing to certify a new oil, especially when these engines last almost forever when run with the old spec oils. the guy above has a RDC with a Detroit 110 engine, I don't think they have been made in 40-50 years. Parts are going to be rare and expensive. I would not suggest that he use his motors for a testbed for a new, unproven oil, especially when similar oils have been shown to cause issues in the past. Bottom line, is like I said earlier, oil and fuel is following the needs of the NEW engines being designed, and driven by emissions requirements. A little sulpher lubricated the fuel system, and many injection pumps are built like swiss watches-watches that run several thousand RPM at 20,000 PSI pressure! Sulpher is gone, and some of these pumps are not surviving long anymore. ZDDP is an oil additive that helps with high pressure scuffing, like that found between old flat tappet lifers and their cams. I think all new engines are now roller follower/rocker, and they took the ZDDP out of the new oils. The amount of cams going flat was staggering! I had one myself. But at least they went a few months or years-new cams wouldn't survive more then a couple thousand miles... |
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| Author: | robertmacdowell [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
Yes that's true, I'm worried a great deal more about the fuel and the loss of the lubricity (lubricating value) of sulfur in the fuel. I thought Europe solved that by requiring some small percentage of biodiesel (which has such excellent lubricity that a little will do) in their diesel. Of course in this country, biodiesel is the unloved stepchild, here in the land of corn we're all about the ethanol, which has terrible lubricity even compared to gas (which is not known for lubricity.) Must be hell to be an engine maker these days. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Detroit Diesel 2-cycle engine lube oils |
Just got an email from Cyclone (speaking of which) has formed a partnership with a biofuels company in Alabama to extract biofuels from mud oil and waste. Ethanol.....never liked the numbers, but it makes a much better farm subsidy program than an energy enterprise. Biodiesel makes much more sense. dave |
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