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Railroad Carload Statistics
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37324		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ns2110 [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Railroad Carload Statistics
Hello all,

I'm writing a term paper on American railroads between 1900 and 2000 and have found most information I've needed thus far but I'm failing to find any records of carloads in the 1930s during the Depression. It seems that most people seem to latch onto the hobo and how they traveled. I'd be very grateful if somebody could point me in the right direction.

Thanks,

J.T.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
You have two options, depending on how detailed you want to go:

The annual Statistics of Railroads in the United States was formerly issued by the Dept. of Commerce from 1880 through the 1950s, at least. It's a ridiculously comprehensive statistical analysis, better suited to your doctoral dissertation on railroad rate regulation than a simple carloading analysis. It can be found here and there with work--among other places, the Md. Rail Heritage Library has a set still being inventoried and catalogued (translation: some are on the shelves and some may still be in the storage container, and all I remember being inside is 1880-1920........).

The more readily available resource, both online and in hard copy, is the Statistical Abstract of the United States, published annually by the Census Bureau/Dept. of Commerce.

Here's 1936, for example:
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/publ ... a_1936.pdf

You probably (in this case) want Table 435 or 436, or one of the ones close by, on Page 379-80 (no relation to the PDF pages, you'll notice).

That's one year. Do your searches for the others. I recommend going to one common source for all the annual data, for probable consistency of methodology if nothing else.
Author:  PCook [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
These figures are from an old handout provided by EMD in the FT era, they were supposedly AAR numbers:

1930: 45,717,079
1931: 37,151,249
1932: 28,179,952
1933: 29,220,052
1934: 30,845,960
1935: 31,518,372
1936: 36,109,112
1937: 38.870,484
1938: 30,457,078
1939: 33,991,498
1940: 36,357,854
1941: 42,359,127
1942: 42,771,102

Interesting to note the big drop corresponding to the 1938 recession, and the increases in 1940 and 1941 at the time of lend-lease industrial buildup before the USA entered World War Two.

PC
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Without getting into a politically loaded debate tonight, this is interesting because those figures, and indeed the mere notion of a depression in 1938, contradict a popular impression that Franklin Roosevelt's "New Deal" "saved America from the Great Depression". A popular political history debate, seized upon by folks opposed to the ideas of "big government," centers on whether the New Deal actually served to ease the Great Depression, or rather exacerbate it.
Author:  PCook [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
An interesting point brought up by Brother Mitchell, and those who want to pursue it further might like to Google "Recession of 1937-1938" and the "Undistributed Profits Tax" of 1936.

PC
Author:  NYCRRson [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Yes indeed, President FDR (and his "brain trust" ???) managed to create a recession inside of a depression. Quite the feat, and the numbers above do verify it. Those car loading numbers are the equivalent of FedEx shipment counts today.

And we recently had a massive "economic stimulus" package followed by the slowest economic recovery from a recession since the Great Depression, coincidence ??? I think not.

Cheers, Kevin.
Author:  Lincoln Penn [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
You might want to consider gross ton-miles rather than carloads, for the simple
reason that cars got larger and carried more as time went on, so a 1955 carload is not the same as a 1935 carload.
Author:  superheater [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Here's a little something interesting about 1938, FDR and the railroads.

It is widely assumed that FDR was "a Keynesian", but after their initial meeting in May 1934; according to Labor Secretary Frances Perkins, Keynes was unimpressed with FDR.


http://crookedtimber.org/2013/06/17/the ... osevelt-2/

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/daybyd ... 28th-1934/

"...supposed the President was more literate, economically speaking.”


On February 1, 1938, Keynes wrote to Roosevelt and on page 6 below, observed

"finally the railroads. The position there seems to be
exactly what it was three or four years ago. They remain,
as they were then, potential sources of substantial demand
for new capital expenditure. Whether hereafter they are
publicly owned or remain in private hands, it is a matter
of national importance that they should be made solvent.
Nationalise them if the time is ripe. If not, take pity
on the overwhelming problems of the present managements.
And here too let the dead bury their dead. (To an Englishman,
you Americans, like the Irish, are so terribly historically minded'.)

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/aboutf ... s_1938.pdf


Of course Mr. Keynes, had he himself been more literate, economically speaking, would have realized that railroads were eating their seed corn for almost THREE DECADES, since the other President Roosevelt made Henry Carter Adams dreams of rate regulation a reality by championing and signing the Hepburn Act in 1906.
Author:  Dougvv [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Without getting into a politically loaded debate tonight, this is interesting because those figures, and indeed the mere notion of a depression in 1938, contradict a popular impression that Franklin Roosevelt's "New Deal" "saved America from the Great Depression". A popular political history debate, seized upon by folks opposed to the ideas of "big government," centers on whether the New Deal actually served to ease the Great Depression, or rather exacerbate it.


If you look closer and read books about the era, it comes out that FDR prevented the USA from going communist. There are several items that point out that the recovery from 1929 was not smooth - point in case is a photo of "the prosperity special" which is a train of some 12-15 AT&SF or SP (I do not recall exactly) 2-10-2s being lifted over PRR's Horseshoe Curve using four (4) 2-8-2s (I think). This was about 1938.

The Great Depression was stopped from getting worse from the New Deal but never was able to recover until the WWII buildup. It is a fascinating topic that the world wide depression after 1929 caused such conditions to allow the rise of Hitler and his insanity of WWII that caused the US recovery from the 1929 crash. I do not know where to discuss this but I'll leave it here since I think it leaves the railroad topic here.

Doug vV
Author:  ns2110 [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Alexander, you gave me a gold mine of information. This paper is far from my doctorate studies and will be far sufficient for my needs. I thank you very much for that.

Lincoln Penn, I'll take into consideration the building of larger freight cars which will eventually lead into container based traffic.

Thank you again gentleman!

Also, some of FDR's practices were considered slightly communist because of government interference in wages and production caps. The National Industrial Recovery Act which created the National Recovery Administration helped stabilize the economy for a short time but drew many critics when small business were still unable to compete with large corporations which undoubtedly controlled the price fixing. This helped declare he NIRA unconstitutional in 1935.
Author:  superheater [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
"The Great Depression was stopped from getting worse from the New Deal"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession_ ... E2%80%9338


What you see is that "the great depression" was actually a series of multiple events, not one, unlike the depression of 1920 which you never heard of, because the politicians didn't get a chance to really start screwing things up in the prior event.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Dougvv wrote:
If you look closer and read books about the era, it comes out that FDR prevented the USA from going communist. There are several items that point out that the recovery from 1929 was not smooth - point in case is a photo of "the prosperity special" which is a train of some 12-15 AT&SF or SP (I do not recall exactly) 2-10-2s being lifted over PRR's Horseshoe Curve using four (4) 2-8-2s (I think). This was about 1938.

OH FOR THE LOVE OF G*D@MN FREAKING MOTHER OF ALL----

You see, folks? THIS is how "revisionist history" balderdash gets perpetuated.

The so-called "Prosperity Special" was twenty (some sources claim fifty) Southern Pacific 2-10-2's being sent from Baldwin to its ordering railroad.

IN 1922.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the Great Depression or its recovery.

Now, Brother "vV," you may be a nice guy, "fellow traveller" and all that. But when you (and others just like you, on a variety of other subjects) muck up THIS badly, how and why am I supposed to take seriously anything else you expound on the subject? Just because you're a good story-teller, like the late Stephen Ambrose?

(Please don't consider this a personal attack, or an affront. If anything, just consider it an object lesson in working from the facts forward, not projecting your assumptions upon what you take to be the historical record, as far too many folks are wont to do these days.)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ssave/107 ... otostream/
Author:  Brian Norden [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Dougvv wrote:
If you look closer and read books about the era, it comes out that FDR prevented the USA from going communist. There are several items that point out that the recovery from 1929 was not smooth - point in case is a photo of "the prosperity special" which is a train of some 12-15 AT&SF or SP (I do not recall exactly) 2-10-2s being lifted over PRR's Horseshoe Curve using four (4) 2-8-2s (I think). This was about 1938.
The Southern Pacific had a "Prosperity Special" of 2-10-2s during the early 1920s during the post-WWI recession.

See this RyPN thread from last year: 24 Locomotives on One Train

Also see Southern Pacific's The Bulletin from April, 1922 that can be found on Google Books, The Prosperity Special was 20 locomotives out of an order for 50.
Author:  M Austin [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
But when you (and others just like you, on a variety of other subjects) muck up THIS badly, how and why am I supposed to take seriously anything else you expound on the subject? Just because you're a good story-teller,


HHHHmmmmmm........
I have this problem with a few "Preservationists" on the technical side of this forum.
Author:  Randolph R. Ruiz [ Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Railroad Carload Statistics
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Without getting into a politically loaded debate tonight

Yet, that is exactly what you did.
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