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Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be saved?
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37525		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Chemungvalleyrail [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be saved?
Amtrak recently picked up around 25 new baggage cars from CAF USA in Elmira Heights as part of the 130 car order that is well along. So the question remains as to whether any of the remaining heritage cars will be saved. Most of the cars are baggage cars and many of the baggage cars are former Santa Fe, which would be great additions to any and all of the Santa Fe oriented museums. Diners from NYC, NP, SP, Burlington and Southern and rebuilt coaches turned baggage cars, not sure what one would want to do with these, conversion back to coaches would be nice but not too likely.

So has anyone inquired about saving any of the remaining heritage cars? Reports vary as to what will become of them - scrap or sold, one of the diners should be added to the display train. I would think that by later this year at least some of the heritage cars will be taken out of service....
Author:  Nova55 [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Maybe some of these can be acquired to replace some of the overgrown, rotted out, no hope cars across the country..
Author:  Txhighballer [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Not sure how official this is, but I had heard any heritage cars retired would be scrapped. Hopefully, that is NOT true. Hopefully some car owners have better info than I do.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Txhighballer wrote:
Not sure how official this is, but I had heard any heritage cars retired would be scrapped. Hopefully, that is NOT true. Hopefully some car owners have better info than I do.

I just dropped a note through official contacts.

Now, who's gonna grab one? I would thing used containers would be cheaper for storage. Diners? Have we maxxed out or used up the dinner train concept, or will Pullman or others start snapping up the diners as they come off-line?
Author:  PaulWWoodring [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
I think it was in the Gunn era at Amtrak that a statement was made that Amtrak would no longer offer retired equipment for sale for preservation. Seems kind of unnecessarily "dick-ish" (I just can't think of another fitting term for that attitude). I don't know if things have changed in the Boardman era?
Author:  Bobharbison [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
PaulWWoodring wrote:
I think it was in the Gunn era at Amtrak that a statement was made that Amtrak would no longer offer retired equipment for sale for preservation. Seems kind of unnecessarily "dick-ish" (I just can't think of another fitting term for that attitude). I don't know if things have changed in the Boardman era?


What was the logic behind that? I can see them saying "No Donations". I can even, begrudgingly, understand the logic of "No discounts or reduced prices". It's a government agency and its mission is not railway preservation. Still, other government agencies such as GSA offer surplus items are reduced costs to non profits and the like.

In any case, was there more to the statement, or simply "Not for sale for preservation". If so, why? What do they care whether the purchaser restores and preserves the car or makes beer cans out of it?
Author:  PaulWWoodring [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
I think Amtrak didn't want to deal with the cars turning up as "Amtrak Qualified" PV's to have to deal with them again? Maybe?

I remember in pre-Amtrak days when some railroads sold old passenger equipment off, particularly the PRR/PC, they demanded the purchaser agree to never, ever try and operate the cars again on a railroad, at least not a mainline one. My childhood orthodontist was part of a group of investors who bought several old PRR coaches to convert into an ice cream parlor, and he told me that was part of the agreement they signed with PennCentral to purchase them. The business folded decades ago and the cars have been long-scrapped.
Author:  Rainier Rails [ Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Chemungvalleyrail wrote:
Diners from NYC, NP, SP, Burlington and Southern and rebuilt coaches turned baggage cars, not sure what one would want to do with these, conversion back to coaches would be nice but not too likely.


Information on the remaining diners and baggage cars can be found on this website: http://www.on-track-on-line.com/

The #17xx-series baggage cars were rebuilt between 1995 and 2001 from Budd postwar leg rest chairs from 3 western roads: AT&SF (1953, 48 seats), SP (Sunset Limited, 1950 & 1954, 44 seats), and UP (1961, 44 seats).

Of a total of 42 #17xx-series baggage cars, currently there are 36 cars in service.

The remaining #11xx-series, #12xx-series, and #18xx-series baggage cars are all of AT&SF heritage. Looking at my notes, I count a total of 32 active cars, 28 of which were built by Budd in 1953 and 1957. The other 4 cars were built by AC&F in 1955: #1252, #1255, #1257, and #1260.

Specifically, the diners, including brief car histories, are listed here: http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-diners.shtml

Besides NYC, NP, SP, CB&Q, and SOU, there is 1 remaining diner of PRR heritage: #8530, which was originally 1DR-29 seat parlor #7143 Molly Pitcher, 1 of 16 parlors built in 1951-1952 by Budd for the Congressional.

This list was last updated in 2004, and several of the diners listed have since been either stored or retired:

#8501 was retired in March 2007.

#8511 was stored in October 2006.

#8514 was retired in January 2007.

#8519 is not listed on the page, but was retired in December 2006.

#8554 was stored in December 2006.

Regarding the histories of the remaining diners, this has previously been discussed in this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36057

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. "Streamliner Cars Volume Three: ACF - Other Builders" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1982)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Mike Palmieri's Amtrak rosters

5. Don Strack's UP passenger car pages: http://utahrails.net/pass/pass-index.php

6. Burlington Route Historical Society passenger car roster: http://www.burlingtonroute.com/docs/rosters/stainlessnumber.html

7. Robert Schoenberg's PRR passenger car diagram database: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=pass&sz=sm&fr=

8. David Coscia's list of extant SP equipment and rolling stock: http://coscia-espee.info/sp_equipment.html

9. "Amtrak by the Numbers" by David C. Warner and Elbert Simon (White River Productions, 2011)

10. On Track On Line's Amtrak pages: http://on-track-on-line.com/amtrak-roster.shtml

_________________
Happy New Year!
Author:  p51 [ Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Is it just me, or does it seem odd to see 1940s and 50s baggage cars on modern Amtrak trains in this day and age at all?
Every time I see an old baggage on the Coast Starlight, it never fails to me stop and wonder why they haven't replaced them long before now.
Author:  NH0401 [ Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Amtraks' current equipment plan clearly states that retired equipment would not be re-sold for additional service.

Whether that point will square with 'political realities' is another story...

Dave
Author:  Bulby [ Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
NH0401 wrote:
Amtraks' current equipment plan clearly states that retired equipment would not be re-sold for additional service.

Whether that point will square with 'political realities' is another story...

Dave


What Amtrak executives told me when I asked was that museums could get cars if they wanted them and could come to an agreement with Amtrak and that management at Amtrak supports them being preserved (but not used in commercial service). The rest get chopped.

Same went for at least one or two of the AEM7s

The only question is how many museums have the space and resources to take care of these cars? That is an important question. I'm sure a lot of museums would love to have some of these cars; but can they be taken care of?
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
What I was told by an Amtrak official (for whom this isn't his line of work, and he had to make some calls) is that whatever regulations actually govern such sales has to do with the elimination of the "oddballs" from Amtrak purview--as in, "They don't want these things possibly coming back to haunt them at the shops IN ANY WAY!" Now, this is a mechanical/operations view, not any official policy.

I jokingly said, "So, are you actually suggesting that someone might buy a former Santa Fe baggage car and rebuild it into a private car."
"Be quiet! You might give someone ideas!"
We were the only two railfans in the place. I'm not sure he was kidding.

In retrospect, I can't see a problem with a real museum or even a "McRailroad Museum," acquiring any of these cars for preservation only. For a for-profit concern like one of the cruise trains, the Alaska RR, or the Grand Canyon/Napa Valley Wine Train, there just might be liability concerns about these now-"ancient" cars being reused for further commercial service, even captively.
In an exercise in brainstorming, I wonder what would happen if a state or regional rail agency, such as MARC, VRE, Rail Runner, Tri-Rail, etc. were to request some baggage cars to retrofit for bicyclist transport, as MARC has experimentally started doing on weekends.
Author:  RCD [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Last time I checked Stainless Steel doesn't rust so unlike wooden cars they should be relatively easy to deal with.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Stainless steel may not rust, but the underframe to which it's bolted may well do so. This is part of why some older Budd-built cars are still running and/or are valued for resale/reuse, while cars from some other builders met a far earlier demise or are not considered worth as much.
Author:  NH0401 [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will any soon to be retired Amtrak heritage cars be save
Some grades of stainless steel are subject to 'inter-granular corrosion.' This fact has been discussed within the forum of a particular railroad trade association.

The decision to avoid mass resales of retired cars has everything to do with the re-establishment of a domestic car-building industry via transplant firms such as CAF, Nippon Sharyo, CNR, etc. The point is to eliminate resales of retired equipment, which are seen by the current crop of carbuilders as 'competition.' This was also discussed within the forum of a railroad trade outfit.

Dave
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