http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... story.html

I haven't seen this pop up on the interchange so I posted it, recently the news around Chicago is that the historic pullman district is going to become a National Park. So what are all of your thoughts on this topic. My thoughts about this are mixed as personally I felt out of place the last time I drove through the district causing me to drive rather quickly, However the district is was a major factor in passenger rail car industry. So what are your thoughts on this topic?

Everyone has their opinions on the NPS but personally I think it's a great idea. The historical significance of the Pullman district stretches much farther than just simply where they made passenger cars. It was one of the best attempts at an industrial utopia and many labor reforms came out of the Pullman company. I, for one, am glad that it is finally getting the national recognition it deserves.

This a multifaceted subject, and I fear that they will greatly favor one or two over the others.

I believe I read somewhere that President Lincoln's son headed up the Pullman company, so that may be one motivation to designate it such.

"After the death of George M. Pullman in 1897 Robert Todd Lincoln (1843-1926) assumed the presidency of the Pullman Palace Car Co. Lincoln remained president of the company until 1911."

From www.pullman-museum.org/theCompany/.

I would be very supportive of the idea... I have visited the site some years ago and was surprised at what was left and the potential, but it seemed while there were efforts being made to preserve, promote and interpret the area, they were a patchwork rather than a clear effort with someone in charge. By the way, Pullman seemed safe, but some neighborhoods around were a bit sketchy...

There have been some interesting National Parks developed, that don't follow the traditional model (big hunk of land owned by and managed by the NPS) particularly "Rosie the Riviter WW2 Home Front" National Park in Richmond California http://www.nps.gov/rori/index.htm or Klondike Gold Rush National Park http://www.nps.gov/klgo/index.htm

Both sites do not necessarily own the land or buildings in question, but instead interpret the area... Klondike Gold Rush has both an operation in Alaska, with a visitors center in the former White Pass Railroad depot, as well as interpretive center in downtown Seattle... Rosie has a visitor center in the former "Ford Assembly Building" (used to prepare military vehicles for shipment over seas) then interprets a variety of sites, mostly owned by others including Red Oak Victory, a dry dock, a medical clinic, a day care center and a block of privately owned homes built as war time worker housing. The various sites are variously privately owned, city owned, or local historical society owned... in some cases protected by zoning or tax incentives. The NPS visitor center is leased... (I believe there may be some development deals that make it somewhat permanent)

Back to Pullman... this could be a relatively inexpensive National Park with the homes continuing to be private homes, with the public spaces interpreted, with the NPS bringing stability and recognition. It seems like there are a lot of stories that could be told here... the architecture, the story of a significant industry, the labor history, including Pullman and how he created the town for his workers, how that deteriorated and lead to the 1894 Pullman strike (and Eugene Debs) or the story of the Pullman porters and their union... (notice so far I haven't used the word "railroad" but that story is there too)

The preliminary study for the project is on line at http://www.pullmanil.org/FINAL_Pullman% ... 0Small.pdf

Randy

Another way to recognize historic districts is in the National Register of Historic Places.

The Western Railway Museum and its 22-mile preserved section of the former Sacramento Northern Railway are now listed in the National Register of Historic Places as the "Sacramento Northern Railway Historic District."

http://www.dailyrepublic.com/news/solanocounty/train-museum-is-solano-countys-newest-historic-site/

Does anyone know what happened to the CB&Q (painted for NP) passenger car that was being kept for some sort of Pullman museum? Metra stored it on the Electric line (@ KYD Shops) for several years. I forgot the number but it is a sister to one at IRM. One number higher or lower.

Steve

Hi,

I do not mention my opinion on preservation often because it seems to upset some that I do not want to save everything in sight.

There are a great many items that might be saved and many more that were lost. One group wants to save almost all civil war battle fields. If this were taken to the extreme, Atlanta (where I live) would have to be torn down and recreated as it was in 1864. History of the railroads in the area may be lost. Living and work space would need to moved outside of the Battle for Atlanta battle field (you may also choose Fredricksburg or Richmond VA). However this would cause the historic pre-civil ware area of Roswell Railroad and the history of the Roswell Railroad to be sacraficed. If moved northwest of Atlanta, it would take out many of the Atlanta Campaign battlefields (from Chattanooga).

I like Wiliamsburg, VA and the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad.

If you think about it, if we continue to plant people in graves in the ground, eventually there will be no more room. I think the National Cemetary at Arlington is near its limit.

I do not know much about the Pullman National Park idea. However the Historic area of Atlanta relevant to Martin Luther King JR. with items in private hands has been a constant area of contention between the City, the NPS, the King family, and many others.

If Pullman can be turned into something like the Williamsburg, VA it would be great. Depending on how big the area is, maybe it would be better to allow developers have it.

I have no answers. I have conditional opinions (if the Pullman site is better operated that the MLK Jr area of Atlanta) only.

I hope that whichever decision is made, it is successfully implemented - not another uncertain item like the EBT.

Just Food for thought.

Doug vV

Steve--

The CB&Q car in question is the #480 Chicago, an 8 duplex roomette-6 roomette-4 bedroom sleeper* built in 1948 by Pullman in Lot #6781 to Plan #4119 for the North Coast Limited. There were a total of 18 8-6-4 sleepers built in that Lot for the NCL. NP owned 14 (#350-#363), SP&S owned 1 (#366), and CB&Q owned 3 (#480-#482). Of these 18 cars, I know of 4 that survive:

*Some of the 8DXR-6RM-4DB sleepers were later redesignated as 8DXR-6RM-3DB-1C.

The #480 Chicago was later moved to storage in the NS Calumet Yard with a second car intended for the A. Philip Randolph Pullman Porter museum, Frisco diner lounge #1551 Oklahoma City. The #480 had been sold to Wisconsin Electric RHS (East Troy) in 1969, sold to Hubert (whose RYPN handle is VistaDome_Adventurer) in the late 70's, and then sold to Bob Emmett in the early 80's (who also owned an NP diner, number unknown at this point). The car was still apparently owned by Bob Emmett when the car was being stored at KYD and later at Calumet. After NS had decided to have the cars removed, it was reported that a sale of at least the Frisco car to Iowa Pacific was possible, but NS ended up selling said car to Progress Rail for scrapping. The CB&Q sleeper has fared better, having been retained by NS as #16, and at last report has been moved to Altoona.

All of the above info on the CB&Q #480 Chicago and SLSF #1551 Oklahoma City is in this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36189

Besides the #480 Chicago/NS #16, the other 3 known survivors are:

CB&Q #481 Savanna sold to IRM in 1969.

CB&Q #482 Dubuque sold to Steamtown in 1969, later to MOT.

The 4th car is in Portland, OR, and at this point in time I have yet to identify which 1 of the other 15 it is:

Car in Portland, photo taken 2/13/2014:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3908749



Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume One: Pullman Standard" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Frisco Historical & Modeling Society website: http://www.frisco.org/vb/content.php

4. Burlington Route Historical Society website: http://www.burlingtonroute.com/

5. Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association website: http://www.nprha.org/

I agree, Glen. Telling a balanced story would make for a fantastic museum. The story of Pullman (the company and the town) touches on several American archetypes. If it could be interpreted through the POV of the barons, the Porters and the shop workers it would be quite enlightening. One could also dream of the restored cars that might come back as exhibits...

Rob

Lost opportunities -- another fear of mine: Several years ago, I discovered a PPC wooden car that was about to be sold. It was in nearly original condition and stored indoors in Oregon for years. I thought this was the perfect car to illustrate the products of Pullman, but after checking it out, the management simply decided they could not afford it. I have no idea what became of that car. I don't even know if it survived.

Glen -

I have commented on this in the past. The bottom line is that the folks involved with the Pullman, Illinois site there in Chicago have absolutely no interest in railroad equipment. I can't believe that a Pullman National Park or National Historic Site can tell the Pullman story without rail equipment, but that is their philosophy.

Les

Les,

The Park Service will probably have their own ideas, but my guess is that they will be much the same as the current administration: a concentration on sociology.

One of the reasons is you need TRACK and SHOP BUILDINGS to tell the whole story, and this location has neither. What it does have is a substantially intact planned "workers paradise" community, and that is the story that needs to be told there. There are other, likely better places to tell the story of the Porters and their attempts to organize, and there are certainly better places to tell the story of the equipment. They are three different stories, and can be best interpreted in three different locations, especially since there are essentially no cars remaining from the days of the utopian community, and the cars that do remain have nothing to do with the community.