I noticed this quote from the 2100 thread and decided to post it in this context, as someone asked who created a very good video for the RDG 2100 folks:

As long as all this was his idea, then he got what he knew was coming.
But you know that some groups wouldn't think twice of asking for the same from someone not in their group and give a blank stare when the concept of payment comes up. If you approach them, and you don't think you ought to pay, don't qait for them to bring it up. Also, don't become a child if they turn you down.
I recently got asked (more like they declared) to do some artwork for a 'non-profit' that isn't RR related. I didn't know any of these people and I have never been associated with them and it's not even my hobby. It's historical and that's as close as I come to being in the same field. They never even actually asked, more like announced to me that they were giving me to 'honor' (their word, it was hard not to laugh) of doing some black and white drawings for their effort. I could see what was coming, but I played dumb and told them what I usually charge for such things (I just finished doing b/w line art and cartoons for a 5-volume series on WW2 Jeeps and I got paid and free books out of the deal). Pay? The devil, I say! They broke out the tired old line, "but think of the exposure you'll get." I've been doing this professionally for several years and now on the side for about 20. I have all the exposure I'll ever need as I've turned down a couple of people recently to focus on other things.
This whole, "exposure" thing works on people getting started because they're too green to know it never works. In all these years I've discovered one unalterable truth:
Free work only ever leads to one thing: Requests for more free work.
While trying to stiffle my laughter, I politely declined.
It got really ugly on their end after that.
I soon hung up, having had my fill of that kind of thing when I was in high school.
Note to others: When you approach someone who does some manner of work for money and they're not already in your group or even in your portion of the hobby, they won't care that you're non-profit. Nor should they. You are asking them for assistance and they have every right to ask to be paid or to decline. If they say no, don't be a jerk about it, because I can assure you, word will get around quickly how you dealt with them. It sure did in my case, as I passed along the info to just about everyone in the area they might be badgering next...

I posted that because I know that Kelly is a legit dude who makes an honest living doing what he does best - video production and social media marketing. I could have spoken out of turn in that he did his work for a discount, and for all I know he was compensated well for his efforts...it was merely banter in an internet forum thread to give him credit where credit is due.

It also appears that the Fort Wayne folks (just my outside conjecture as a non labor-contributing member of FWRHS) will be helping with the 2100 project. I feel a more collegial feel with the new breed of historic preservation...much like the way in which craft brewing has beat a lot of odds to help one another out in smaller markets to take a share of the previously unbeatable big breweries. The culture of cross-project/society support has been encouraging

That being said, the point you make is valid, albeit as a friend of Kelly's, I hope my comments don't come off as presumptuous. I was trying to give him some credit, while poking a playful jab at him at the same time. He's one busy, talented dude.

Yes, he is. Talented dudes usually are quite busy.

Howard P.

I don't know either of you, but from your description, it seems valid.
My point was that the man sounds like he was already connected to the group, and therefore approachable if indeed that came to pass.
When it comes to services like his, people are odd. they associate this kind of thing with some manner of value, in that not everyone can do it. But nobody wants to pay for it.
I get random people all the time, wanting me to draw stuff for them for free, like I'm their personal art slave or something. Often, i don't know them form a hole in the ground, and they have no reason to expect something for free other than they're simply cheap people who seem to understand what I do has value, but they still don't wanna pay for it.
My dad is an exremely talented blacksmith, you wouldn't believe what the man is acable of. And for most of my life, people would ask him to cast something for them and that they would always think that offering to pay for just the materials would be just fine for compensation. Sure, brass ain't cheap, but do you know how much work goes into casting something brand new from nothing but an idea? Apparently, most people have no idea. My Dad recently completed this 1/6 scale cannon, which he made just for the heck of it (and it fully functional in every way a real one is):



I showed these photos to a pal of mine who has more money tied up into guns than most of you have into anything other than your homes. He had the nerve to ask me to ask my father (two people who've never even met and don't know each other) to make him one FOR FREE. My response was pretty swift and harsh. I asked if he ever called up Colt and asked if they'd make him a M1911A1 pistol for free. He didn't get it.
Again, the finished product has value, but not the effort it takes to create it.
I'm sure some of you are (or know) musicians and/or singers. People like that, I'm sure, can tell you similar tales.

My wife is an artist.

This is one of our favorite cartoons, from "Sarah's Scribbles" by Sarah Andersen:

If your going to make money you have to do something commercially to sell, if you go to make something for a group to help them out on their project thats a good move, really based on how many museums/groups work on restricted financialabilities. (wottaword)

I have a very self demanding quality for my 765 restoration video which is why its taking so long. I might be in the thick of all the 765 doings but I have a life too. I don't want to see a jump on him because he may work hard to support a project, so many out there need something like that. I've done music, animation, radio shows the list goes on. it means my project will be worth it.

If you follow Sam Sykes' Twitter feed, the way authors don't want to pay artists is one of his major rants. Every time he sends out a feeler for an artist for one of his books, he always adds something like "I will pay. Let me see samples of your work online and confirm your price and what I want before you start drawing."

Actual "exposure" projects are almost always dear to the writer's or artist's heart, or opportunities for a huge career boost that will result in some kind of income afterwards-- a project that is also a contest entry, for instance, or a work that is also a degree requirement. When you're about to ask for free work, ask yourself what the artist will get out of it (and don't say "exposure.")

There's another really touchy point: if a pro offers to do something for your group, or you ask and they do, and somebody on your board doesn't like it or what have you, the way your group handles the rejection is going to say a whole lot about what you get from anyone in the future. I know of a non-rail charity that actually put itself out of business in large part because they constantly begged for and accepted help from various professionals, got high-quality work for free, then complained about it.

I would suggest obtaining and reading a non-profit organization's IRS 990 form before you agree to any requests that involve you having to absorb travel expense. If you find that their own officers are filing for big money on travel reimbursement, then there is no reason why they should be expecting you to fund expensive travel benefiting their organization from your family's budget.

PC

Great point. I've always noticed that the amount of changes or corrections asked for is inversly proportionate to how much you're getting paid for the project.
For example I was once asked to do a single-page drawing for a national military historical society magazine. I decided to do it as I liked and was familiar with the subject matter.
They kept asking for changes, even once asking that I re-correct a portion to how I'd drawn it originally. This was back when you had to make a copy and mail it, so this went on for a long time. After I think the 5th of 6th major revision they asked for, they started asking to change a large portion of the drawing itself, to look more like an original photo they'd had (this was never brought up with me at any point before). I then realized that since they didn't have any money in this drawing, they felt they could just get me to do whatever whim crossed their minds. I replied in writing that I'd already drawn what they originally wanted, made the one correction that I agreed needed to be made from an error of mine, but that what I had done was what they were going to get and no further changes were coming.
Keep in mind, all they had was poor photocopies at this point.
I never heard from them again and I'm 99% sure they never even finished their article nor was it ever published.

Lee, you run into the same type of thing between authors. Somebody calls up and wants you to stop everything you are doing because they just had a great idea for an article and need you to search your collection for all the items they need. Their article of course takes priority over anything you might be doing. And oh, by the way, it is so important that they are trying to squeeze it into the very next issue of the historical society's magazine and only have a "few days" to work on it. So you try to help them, you get the material sent to them, and the days and the months and maybe the years go by and you never see anything in print. If you are lucky, maybe someday they send back what they borrowed.

Unfortunately, some folks think that they are entitled to have you make it easy for them to do tasks that you accomplish with considerable time and effort.

PC

Yeah, I get people every now and then looking into writing or putting onto film, something having to do with a non-RR-relatewd military subject I'm considered an authority on and a big collection of.
Nobody ever even thinks of offering to pay for my time. And like the artist thing, that worked a few times before I wised up quickly. You're right; you never get to see anything in print and you never, EVER get a thanks from anyone for your time.
Funny how once I started replying to these types what my hourly rates are for research, I never hear back from them again!
I have several books which are exceptionally rare of the only one of their type. I get emails from people I have never met, asking me to scan entire books for them. I no longer even reply to those people, even when I get nasty, "I guess you're too good to help me" messages like the last random knucklehead who wanted me to scan a 200 page book for him for free.

200 pages? Free? That is, as we say elsewhere, all kinds of no.

The best response I ever got when I asked for information came from the MSHA archivist in Morgantown. I emailed her on a Sunday night, figuring she'd get it Monday morning and I might hear back that week. They opened their office at something like 8:30 Monday morning. At 9 AM, when I checked my email, the file I had requested was in the inbox...and they didn't charge me anything. You better bet she got a line in the credits.

Worst request for info? I spent most of a year with a semi-local author who was writing a book about a local disaster. He called every Sunday (generally at really inconvenient times) for an hour and a half or two hours, wanting interviews with local people. I set them up, answered his questions, looked for stuff for him and introduced him to people when he was here on several trips. Imagine my surprise when the book came out with every reference to me or my family cut out and my own work mentioned only as "an anonymous unpublished manuscript." He told people I "just wouldn't help." As it turns out, he's been in the habit of doing such things, so I'm not alone, but it still ticks me off.

Yeah there are people like that all over. They don't matter. They are cheap and incapable of understanding value. To them value is cost, which is why the artifice of charging them for your services makes them value the services more.

In fact, anyone uncertain of his worth can and should be putting themselves into the new internet based gig economy, for instance your father should be on etsy or eBay so he can see firsthand the value the market gives his work.


Oh, we get that all the time. People who want us to do free research, want free photography backdrops, ask us to send foamer ephemera internationally, etc. Ask us to call a crew on a weekday for a birthday run that'll earn us $150. Or balk at having to pay $5 for used railroad ties. "You're a nonprofit so you can do it for a donation right?"

I get your point, but Dad has never sold anything he's ever done and as he'll be 80 in February, I'm sure he never will. He made a series of scale mortars (bored for golf ball size) that he gave one to me, my brother, and my nephew. Nobody else got one and he's not going to sell any.
He said the minute it becomes work, it'll stop being fun.
And as someone who drew professionally for a while, I found he was right about that (and most other thins he told me when I was a kid).

Several years ago I had a gentleman wanting to get some detailed photographs my 1962 Kenworth. On the appointed day the man shows up and proceeds to photograph the truck in very intimate detail. After a 2 hour photo shoot, the man thanks me and asks what he owes me. I hadn't even thought about asking for money.... the gentleman hands me $100.00 and tells me that my time is worth something and I should never be afraid to charge for my time.... Lesson Learned.