Built in 1875 for the Erie.
-Philip Marshall
| Railway Preservation News https://www.rypn.org/forums/ |
|
| Portageville Bridge Replacement Project https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38053 |
Page 1 of 3 |
| Author: | J3a-614 [ Sun May 10, 2015 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
You might want to get your pictures while you can; this large bridge over the Genesee River in New York is scheduled for replacement, starting this year. Preservation was proposed (the new bridge will not in quite the same location as the old), but apparently no money was available for it, and it's up for demolition: http://bridgehunter.com/ny/wyoming/bh45773/ https://www.dot.ny.gov/portagevillebridge https://www.dot.ny.gov/portagevillebridge/photos https://www.modjeski.com/projects/detai ... ville-Arch http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-s ... ridge.html http://thecrhs.org/image/view/26281/_original http://www.rochestersubway.com/topics/2 ... e-project/ |
|
| Author: | philip.marshall [ Mon May 11, 2015 1:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
Built in 1875 for the Erie. -Philip Marshall |
|
| Author: | Overmod [ Mon May 11, 2015 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
Does anyone else here find the silence from groups like ARTA deafening? (And yes, this is a legitimate preservation issue now, not a railfanning controversy...) |
|
| Author: | sbhunterca [ Mon May 11, 2015 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
Would any groups out there be able to use one, or several, spans from this bridge? While preservation of the entire bridge would be ridiculously expensive, recycling (and repairing as required) individual spans might make economic sense if the bridge's owner is willing to entertain the idea. Just wondering! Steve Hunter |
|
| Author: | Mgoldman [ Mon May 11, 2015 6:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
" Norfolk Southern, a major freight railroad that operates rail lines in the Southern Tier, offered to give the historic bridge to the Office of State Parks and Historic Preservation for use as an observation platform when the new bridge is completed, but the offer was turned down. "We are not in the position to take on a big project," Parks Department spokesman Peter Brancato said, saying the cost would be prohibitive during tough fiscal times." Such a shortsighted vision... Who says the bridge "project" would need to be dealt with "during tough fiscal times"? Is it going somewhere? Is it ready to fall? (No). Who says it needs to be a project at all? Just put up a fence to keep people off the track. People are already walking across the span today. If I recall correctly, the walkway already exists. This park could probably use the added attraction - I never knew the place existed until I saw a tiny sign on the highway nearby - "The Grand Canyon of New York" while returning from the somewhat nearby Arcade and Attica railroad. /Mitch |
|
| Author: | J3a-614 [ Mon May 11, 2015 9:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
Mgoldman wrote: Who says the bridge "project" would need to be dealt with "during tough fiscal times"? Is it going somewhere? Is it ready to fall? (No). Who says it needs to be a project at all? Just put up a fence to keep people off the track. People are already walking across the span today. If I recall correctly, the walkway already exists. /Mitch Interesting words in view of other comments in the past that attempted to make the case that we were trying to save too much, that we had too much to do as it is now. And yet, this is how those preserved locomotives and rusty equipment of all types survived in the first place to eventually be protected again, in some cases even to be restored to operation. I'm quite certain the people who preserved them couldn't think 50 or 60 or 70 years ahead any better than we can today. As we know too well, they apparently didn't think too much about or plan too well for the continued care of their artifacts. And yet, because of them, we have the artifacts to breath life back in. Would the bridge at Portageville eventually suffer the fate of the one at Kinzua? Well, that's possible, certainly--but let us recall that Kinzua might be with us today if the tornado had held off for another year; it was in the process of repair and restoration at the time of the collapse. That was after something like 40 years of abandonment. Was it in as good condition then as the bridge at Portageville is today? This is not to criticize anyone, just some questions to ponder. . . . |
|
| Author: | philip.marshall [ Mon May 11, 2015 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
As a resident of New York state myself, I can't help but wonder about the role of political geography in this. Portageville is in a very poor part of New York, distant from major population centers and the powers that be, and as the saying goes, "out of sight is out of mind". If this bridge were within 100 miles of New York City it would be a celebrated landmark, like the Poughkeepsie Bridge, but out in the opposite corner of the state it might as well not even exist. The public doesn't know about it, so what constituency is there to speak for its preservation? -Philip Marshall |
|
| Author: | Loco112 [ Tue May 12, 2015 12:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
I would like to look into buying the remains of that bridge. Do any of you know to whom I would need to speak to? |
|
| Author: | David Johnston [ Tue May 12, 2015 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
As I recall the bridge is wholly within the state park. It is either just upstream or just down stream from the falls. It is too bad the state park people do not buy themselves some time and make an effort to add the bridge to the parks attractions. It is a beautiful location, but off the beaten path. |
|
| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue May 12, 2015 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
Loco112 wrote: I would like to look into buying the remains of that bridge. Do any of you know to whom I would need to speak to? Your best bet: If you have questions, please contact: Raymond Hessinger, P.E. Director, Freight & Passenger Rail Bureau New York State Department of Transportation 50 Wolf Road, POD 5-4 Albany, NY 12232 Raymond.Hessinger@dot.ny.gov Dedicated email address: PortagevilleBridge@dot.ny.gov Having been through the bridge preservation process with plenty of other bridges much smaller, this bridge is problematic at best. You have the "middle of nowhere" problem of Kinzua, the tall and ancient structure problem, the attraction to bungee/suicide jumpers, etc. If this were a stone arch viaduct that might outlast Armageddon, it would be better. But if this gets saved by anyone, they will have to assume the expense of maintenance and possible rebuilding/rehabilitation, at millions of dollars. As much as I want to see magnificent engineering of old like this and Kinzua preserved, the story of Kinzua Viaduct State Park kind of waves a cautionary red flag. Without a groundswell of local support and/or local legislators willing to blackmail fellow politicians to get what they want (hey, this IS New York we're talking about!), I can't be optimistic. Now, removing an individual span for preservation at ground level in the park or as a useful span near the waterfall? That could work...... |
|
| Author: | Reading T1 2124 [ Tue May 12, 2015 1:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
As a worse-case scenario solution, in the event that the bridge is entirely unpreserved, why not save the builders plates? Often when things go South for such items, it is small things like this that can be economically preserved. I saw a date plate online, I'm sure there are more things like this that can be saved as a last resort. I say this only as a realist, but with proper funding... |
|
| Author: | cjvrr [ Tue May 12, 2015 1:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
I will start by saying I have never visited the existing Portageville Bridge and am no expert on its existing condition other than what has been shared publicly. Speaking from an engineer's point of view in general about steel structures. They get old even when they are taken care of. From the foundations to the steel members, bridge seats, connections, etc they all reach an end to their useful life. Even with rehabilitation a certain amount of steel is replaced to which eventually you have a structure that over time has been fully replaced. I see it with roadway bridges which typically have a much shorter life span than rail bridges due to winter salt use. You can't save it all, not should you try. Mention was made of the Poughkeepsie Bridge but that too sat for nearly 35 years un-used, neglected. A private individual purchased it for re-use as a trail but it eventually ended up with the State and they finished his vision and it is an excellent one at that. It has very much boosted the local economy. But maintenance will continue to be an issue on the structure forever. It was not even painted with the most recent rehab. So while I see the merit from one side of keeping this specific structure in place I don't see the long term economic advantage when considering the continued long term maintenance costs. As far as re-using portions of any structure in another venue those have merit if the structure can be economically dismantled and shipped. |
|
| Author: | thebigham [ Tue May 12, 2015 9:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
Here are some Before & After tree-cutting pics I took: West bank in September 2014: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=219449 On March 19, 2015: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=222721 On March 28, 2015: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=222934 Bridge over the park road in August 2014: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=217761 On March 28, 2015: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=222940 East bank in September 2014: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=219452 and http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=219451 On March 28, 2015: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=222941 Location of new bridge in September 2014: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=219447 On March 28, 2015: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=222932 West bank in September 2014: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=219448 On March 19, 2015: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=222723 On March 28, 2015: http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=222933 |
|
| Author: | NYCRRson [ Tue May 12, 2015 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
Well, this is New York State, and the upstate population has very little say in what happens politically. There are way too many things that the "downstate" folks "need" to spend any of my tax dollars on this. Letchworth State Park was "fixed up" quite nice back in the post war "boom" years, a new Olympic sized swimming pool and new cabins etc. where installed. But in the last 30 years it has gone "downhill" and is in need of serious repairs to all of the facilities (parking lots, cabins, roads, signs, trails, etc.). It was recently voted the TOP state park in the USA and it is still a natural wonder to see. I have hiked around and under this bridge many times, as the son of a railroader I never went out on the bridge deck itself as it was "live track" and I always "expected" a train at any time. I remember many nights staying in cabins in the park listening to the trains blow for the crossings as they approached the bridge, very nice memories. It is an engineering marvel, it replaced a wooden structure that was consumed by fire (who knew that a wooden bridge could burn, huh ??). The interesting thing is how fast they replaced the burned out wooden structure with this existent steel structure, I think it was something like 90 days or so (too busy to research it at this time). Holy c--p, these days it takes years just to get the necessary permits. Maybe it is time to "Let her rest in pieces" ? New York State is not competent enough to maintain something as complex as this, heck they can hardly pave the parking lots in that park correctly.... Maybe a "goodbye" weekend where everybody can walk out on the bridge deck one last time (with no trains approaching) and say goodbye could be organized ? Cheers, KevinK. |
|
| Author: | ArtS [ Tue May 12, 2015 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Portageville Bridge Replacement Project |
I'm curious, how much of the bridge dates to 1875 and how much to 1903 or later? My guess is the towers are old but the spans and structures near the level of the track are newer. The 1875 components would be wrought iron as opposed to steel and are likely in good shape. The iron could continue on a low maintenance schedule, even going without paint but the steel components would need to be maintained. To me, the bridge is specifically built for the location and relocating a piece of it (besides a token such as the plaques) is not wise. There are other equally historic bridges in need of saving that would be more practical to reuse. This is a case where the whole is greater than the parts. What's interesting is the renderings of the arch have the old bridge in the foreground. I suspect that the arch will be much more imposing and massive than the existing bridge than the renderings indicate. Its a shame that the $1M removal cost can't be used as a maintenance endowment, but it probably wouldn't last long if managed by the state. Regards, Art S. |
|
| Page 1 of 3 | All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|