Came across this set of links on the Bachmann model railroad site--progress photos from a modeler of a small two-truck Shay under restoration in Montana; apparently the group is going for operation. The first section also has some photos that may be of interest to our Mr. Pullman:

http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/2012/02 ... -1643.html

http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/2012/04 ... pt-ii.html

http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/2012/09 ... t-iii.html

Have fun.

Edit--link to related thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34440

Looking through the pictures I would have thought that the dismantling of the locomotive could wait until they could put a concrete floor in that enginehouse and build some doors for each end. With a concrete floor a little hand powered 3 ton gantry crane could be installed making dismantling much easier and with some walls work can continue during the winter months and without as much fear of the locomotive parts walking away at night.

This group strikes me as very enthusiastic but enthusiasm soon wanes when working in less than ideal conditions for long periods of time. I hope this loco doesn't turn into one of the dozens of locos now dismantled in storage with parts cast about the four winds.

H M -

From looking at their website, I got the impression that the building was moved over to where the track was located so that the Shay could be worked on inside. Yes, I agree that a set of doors on both ends would be nice, and a concrete floor even nicer, but at least the engine is protected from most of the weather.

Les

Hot Metal I agree. I wish I could help with the project. Some very simple and not expensive improvements could make things much easier/safe.

The one thing that makes me nervous too is mentioning of "boiler inspector" and local boiler company. Not to say any of this is wrong, but I did not hear one mention of FRA compliance. Did say they had some experienced people coming to give thoughts and quotes. Just hope someone is charge knows what they are doing. This is a wonderful locomotive and don't want to see it dismantled and forgotton due to lack of funds or ability to finish. "The road to hell is paved with gold and good intentions".

In all fairness lets hope the good folks here have done their homework before they go much further. The locomotives disassembled at Mid Continent in the 1970s and are still in parts scattered about or lost forever. Sad thing is the whole failed restoration thing has happened time again all over, not just at one or two places around the country. 35 years ago the #6, 0-4-0T and Lima 30 ton 2-6-0 were taken apart and scattered. Nothing has changed in all this time. Would be sad to see this little gem of a Shay have similar fate. Good luck to them. Cheers, John.

Usually I keep my "mouth" (keyboard) shut at times like this, but something inside is making me "stick up" for this little group of people and their Shay. I'm on the other side of country and I don't have a clue who these people are. However, the more I looked through the photos and text, the more impressed I became at what these folks are doing. Please give them a chance.

Remember the only "shop" the folks at Minersville, PA had to work on CNJ 113 was a tarp over the engine and today they have an operational locomotive. The world's only operating PRR steam locomotive, WGHSEA's 643, lives in and is maintained in a similar building complete with a dirt floor and no end doors. Today the WK&S RR at Kempton, PA has a nice modern shop building, but for many many years, their repair and maintenence work was a total "fresh air experience." Sometimes it takes many years before a 100% suitable work enviroment is in the budget.

Now I think about it, I would bet that "back in the day" a whole lot of Shays, Climaxes, and Heislers that were owned by small to medium size logging operations were repaired and maintained in "facilities" just like what you seen in these photos--or no building at all.

These folks seem to be creative in using what they have available. Their use of a tele-boom rough-terrain forklift seems to work for them and the lifts they were doing seem to be done in reasonably safe manner. I'm sure these folks would prefer having a concrete floor and an overhead crane to what they have.

As for the boiler and inspections and repairs, it looks to me that they are pretty darn "insular" and so FRA compliance probably wouldn't apply. I would imagine the "boiler inspector" mentioned would be from their state and their consulting early on with the authority having jurisdiction is a good thing. The boiler was UT'ed by what looks from a distance to be a suitable firm and sounds like the only real issue area is the lower portion of the front tube sheet. Seeing what I've seen so far, I would believe that they would contract with a suitable certified repair firm and not with a version of TV's Red Green (the duct tape guy) for boiler repairs.

I'm sure I misread the tone of the other posts, which did seem to come off at least a little negative against what these folks are trying to do. Sorry if that wasn't the intent.

Personally I'll be very surprised if in the not too distant future we don't see a YouTube video of this Shay steaming out of this floor-less and crane-less enginehouse.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

edited for my usual typos

The success stories of the CNJ 113 are more than outweighed by the disaster stories of the Mid Continent locomotives and the C&O 2700. All it takes is one guy in a pickup at midnight with a set of wire snips and half the drive train of that Shay can be gone for good. ATSF 2926 anyone?

Concrete isn't that expensive. Fill in the floor up to 4" from the top of the ties with aggregate, pour a 4" floor up to the top of the ties and maybe run some No. 4 rebar to keep it from cracking to pieces. Then wall off those building ends and put in a couple of swinging doors that can be LOCKED at night. People are so much more productive when there is a decent place to work, and the money spent on a few shop improvements is more than paid back down the road in prevented thefts and ease of working.

I did not follow this advice and I am paying the price. I had to rescue stolen parts from scrap yards twice, and the list of parts that I have to replace includes fifteen 3 1/2" nuts and a reach rod. I now spend about 80% of my time working on our new building and property and about 20% working on our equipment, but it is time well spent. To be able to leave projects sitting on the workbench at the end of the day and just lock the shop door behind me is a godsend compared to the days of lugging everything into the shipping container and worrying that the small parts under the tarp will be there tomorrow.

If my posts seem a bit less than supportive then just blame it on twenty years of experience doing things the hard way. I know its not sexy to pour concrete or build walls when everyone wants to just tear the locomotive to pieces, but it is the responsible thing to do.

PRR 0-6-0 643, Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Assn., Pa.

Open-sided shed. Steams up.

Jes' sayin'.

Trust me when I say not one thing I said was meant as negative towards this group at all. What I saw is what you saw, a great bunch of good folks working together on or for a common goal, a very noble one too. I said it before and will again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I personally know the people who took the mid contintent engines apart back in the mid 1970's. They were people who had knowledge and experience and both people had the capacity and ability to do what they had intended. That is to restore to operation these two locomotives. They were not evil, stupid or incompetent. One was a top notch machinest and the other a steam fitter who worked on nuke sites back when we built them in this country. It happens very easily to the best intentions of mice and men. The comment on FRA by me was not meant as sarcasm. There has been many a mistake made in trying to restore a locomotive to state codes under the impression that because the locomotive was or is insular to class one RR that FRA was not going to be involved. If that is true and it works for them great, but some have found out the hard way, it ain't necessarily true even if you are insular. I want in the worst way for that locomotive and this group to be sucessful. What I do not want to see is another well intentioned start come to a screaching halt with everybody getting overwhelmed by nasty surprises that they didn't realize might be coming down the pike. Was stated that they do have some professionals with expereince coming by, so maybe the concerns are not going to be needed. Sorry I have seen this to many times before not to have concerns. True it isn't my locomotive or my group, but my concerns are genuinely for the well being of the locomotive and the group.

I have jacked locomotive frames up off the wheels, then back down and then back up in the snow and ice in Wi winters. For years I have worked outside in horrible weather because it was the only option. I can't even come close to expressing my agreement with what Hot Metals comments on. Having even a drafty old shed like they have with a small wood burning stove would be heaven compared to working outside in the cold. In order to have even the most modest of convienence of a degree of heat and some sort of security for your parts and tools is essential to the people and project. Sure you can work outside if you want and maybe in that part of MT they don't have to much theft of rare Shay parts. But for the effort to fully enclose that shed and afford the crew some comfort and a small but doable work area would be effort well spent.

About two weeks ago I went out to my own shop and took a gas tank out of a Farmall 460. My shop isn't heated and it was about 5 degrees above zero that night. Fairly straight forward task, didn't need my overhead crane or air compressor, just a handful of wrenches. Had great lighting which made the job bearable. Actually it wasn't that bad, had to stop maybe 3 times and go in and warm up my hands, fingers have been frost bit in past and they hurt when they get to cold. That was not a bad job. But if I worked on farm equip or heavy equipment all the time I am here to tell you my shop would be insulated and would have some sort of heat, even a small wood burner like the group in MT has.

My point is Jim your defence of this group is appreciated to a degree, only because I think like you do that this group appears to be a great bunch. Wish I could jump in the pictures and join in the fun. But you are misguided in thinking that anything negative was intended. Cheers, John.

As I noted in my post, I figured that I was misreading the negativity that sort of came across. People that work on old iron tend to be positive people--you pretty much have to be when dealing with old machinery.

I can understand the concerns about having this or any other locomotive disassembled and left that way for all eternity. Over the years I've seen enough "permently disemboweled choo choos" to last a life time. One thing I did note about this group is that they seem (so far) to be disassembling only what is needed to do a specific task. Also I noted that they're identifying the parts such as which valves are which.

Yeah, I'm putting a whole bunch of faith in a group of people I don't know and probably will never meet. From a distance they seem like a good group with a neat project. I did notice that they welcomed a 15 year old kid to work on the locomotive--they get an A+ in my book for not pushing aside the future of railway preservation.

However, I agree 1000 percent with Mr. Hot Metal with the need to protect the removed bits and pieces from any scrap metal lowlifes. Even if metal theft isn't a major issue where they're at, hopefully they're aware of the potential and they're securing the parts somewhere.

Also, I would imagine, given where they are, these folks would have to at least temporarly seal up the open ends of that building if they are going to work in it during the winter. When the WGHSEA group in PA did the major overhaul on PRR 643 a few years back, they built a temporary heated enclosure around the locomotive inside their semi-open enginehouse.

Regards,
Jim Robinson

I've worked under a variety of conditions in a variety of places.....and based on those experiences I believe that the cost of starting with a rudimentary shelter able to be kept clean and enclosed in reasonable proximity to an electrical outlet and a water hose will actually lower the real cost of doing the project and lead to an increase in volunteer participation and satisfaction. If you combine this with a manitained portable privy and a lockable heavy tool and parts storage container, even better. NOBODY likes working in stupid ways, fighting your lack of infrastructure to even accomplish basic tasks, when a bit of forethought and limited construction first will make all subsequent tasks easier and result in a better quality of product.

You have to start bsomewhere....and it isn't always easy to understand why sometimes you start with creating capabilities before you do what the capabilities allow you to do - the real goal of the project.

I'm usually a goal guy who has no patience with process, but some times process can lead to faster and better goal achievement.

dave

It might be of note that the shed is actually the original enginehouse (or a portion of it) part of the J Neils mill (thence St Regis, then Champion, then Stimson--now closed).

No doubt the people working up there would like doors and floors too and are probably working toward that end.

Thanks for the link to the blog though.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

I commend then on the job they are doing. Its almost exactly like the 113 except they actually have a roof over their heads. The way they are working now is probably the same way they were working on that exact engine over 70 years ago. Kind of a throwback to the old days I guess. Its cool to me but I am just a youngster.

Relax, nobody was condemning anybody for the way they are doing things. For the record I and another guy put a throttle back in a logging locomotive the same way these folks are removing steam dome parts. We used a fork lift, a piece of square tubing with an eye bolt through it for the boom and a chain, we used the same set up to put the driving boxes in place as well as a host of other fairly light wt pieces. Hurray for us we didn't use a crane and we worked outside in all four seasons. No roof or building. So what? Nobody ever suggested you had to have a drop table, overhead crane or heat. You do what you have to with what you have to work with. Doesn't mean you have to do things the hard way, no manly rewards for it that I have seen. If you all want to rebuild steam engines in the dirt and then slap each other on the back go for it. I will be assiting in putting this logging locomitve in WI back together outside, in the dirt without a building, heat, or overhead crane. Just the way it is. I don't applaud us for it, I think it stupid that we have to work outside in the weather. But I want to see this thing run so I will do it. But to applaud poor working conditions is a concept that I do not understand. Maybe some day I will? Cheers, John.

Blah blah blah, me me me blah.

Nothing like waking up to an LaZyboy recliner word-a-thon on rypn.org.

FWRHS 765 - initial restoration outdoors
SantaFe 2926 - outdoors
SantaFe 3415 - essentially outdoors
Maine Narrow Gauge 7 - plastic tarp, dirt, ply-wood

I am sure I could go on. I believe that rypn.org should consider charging "donations" for access to this site. There are SOOOO many knowledgable people on here, surely they have plenty of money to help pay for all these restoration shops, paint jobs, one-off restorations, overhauls, retro-fits, etc? $25.00 a month x 12 months = $300 per year x 300 or so members = $90,000
$90K might just give them a sheet metal building with heat, running water, and a concrete floor. Next year we can spend the $90K on the taxes they will need to pay on said building and the overhead crane they need.

Oh to dream, the majority here won't even pay a ticket price of an excursion, while they complain about a 5 yr old blocking their "perfect picture" of locomotive so-in-so.

Hello again, found more coments here. Here is some more information on our progress on the Shay. First the boiler inspector is the state of montana boiler inspector for our area. He has been a great help on contacts of people in the boiler repair and operation business. The AI is a boiler repair business in Spokane Wa. Not the duct tape "king" We all like watching the Red Green show on pbs. Winter is a slow time for most businesses. Our plan for this summer is doors on the enginehouse and some cement floor as the money goes. As for FRA regs. yes we are going for having the shay meet or exceeding the fed regs. If it takes one more year before we are able to run the shay then so be it. When is comes to steam, safety is "First". We have about 20 more hours to have the crankshaft cleaned up, then on to the main bearings. Have 2x12's 16' long to deliver this weekend. These will be used to replace the decking on the shay. Work has started on replacing the windows of the cab, the cab will be completely replased. When they cleanup the shay to put it on display at the lumber company,they used plywood. Next inline will be removing the tender, while we have the decking off will check over the frame, prime and paint the back half. That will be as the weather warms up. As always were there most Saturday mornings, so stop by and get your hands dirty.