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When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
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Author:  Rick Rowlands [ Fri May 22, 2015 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
Bucci turbo on McDonald Steel S2 777. Two big freeze damaged areas, one part cracked in an H pattern, the other split along the outside of the housing near the top. Since replacement turbos are a bit hard to find, I'm going to have to try to repair these areas.

See that pipe plug at the bottom of the first photo. That is where a GURU plug is going to be going, and about five more of them will go on this locomotive!

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Author:  Pegasuspinto [ Fri May 22, 2015 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
a WHAT????

http://www.thermomegatech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/MagnumGURU.pdf

hey cool!
Author:  etalcos [ Fri May 22, 2015 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
Yeah, that sucks. I can certainly vouch for the GURU plugs -- they've saved our butt several times. I don't care for using antifreeze in any of its varieties in our locomotives for a myriad of reasons. However, the GURU plus a good block heater and proper rust inhibitor in the cooling water is a good way to go IMHO.

ETA
Author:  NYCRRson [ Fri May 22, 2015 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
I suggest you investigate a product known as "Lock-N-Stitch" (tm). I have had success with it repairing internal cracks in cast iron castings. There are similar products on the market.

Do not waste your time trying to weld those cracks, it is as close to impossible as you will ever want to get. And it is not a matter of your skills. Basically when you weld a cast iron piece like that the stress from temperature induced expansion exceeds the strength of the cast iron. The welding process just moves the cracks around, or hides them for a few months.

I know a fellow that had similar freeze damage to an Alco turbo, after attempting a welded repair (from an "expert" cast iron welder), he ended up getting a replacement turbo.

And no, I do not work for, or have any financial interest in the "Lock-N-Stick" company, but their stuff does work.

Good Luck, KevinK.
Author:  Rick Rowlands [ Fri May 22, 2015 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
I was recommended to look into a product called belzona, an industrial repair epoxy. I also know about locknstitch, I have a sample of their stitching pins in my desk drawer. I may end up using a combination of the two on this repair.
Author:  NYCRRson [ Fri May 22, 2015 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
Rick, yes there are other products out there.

The "Lock-N-Stitch" folks have some good tutorials on their website, and a wide variety of sizes.

I used their products to "stitch" a crack right across an intake valve seat on a 1920's Buda gasoline engine. Worked great.

I am not opposed to epoxy as a repair material for some situations, but I do not believe that it has any real strength to "pull" the crack together, it mostly acts to "fill" the crack and does not restore the original strength of the cast metal. The stitching pins actually "pull" the cracked metal together.

If it was my Turbo I would be inclined to use the "Lock-N-Stitch" products. But using the stitching pins probably requires a "tear down" and reassembly process (so you can clean up all the chips from the stitching process). If you just want to seal some leaks for a few years an epoxy will work (for a few years).

The thing about cracks is that they will just keep getting longer unless you relieve the stress at the end of the crack. I work with large glass mirrors and when a crack appears we often drill a hole slightly past the end of the crack to relieve the stress and then fill the crack with an epoxy like material. The stitching pins actually pull the crack back together and relieve the stress and stop (for a long time) the crack from progressing.

Good Luck, KevinK.
Author:  AlcoC420 [ Sat May 23, 2015 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
Word of advice.

For that turbo to crack that high, it would appear that the engine was full of water. It is not uncommon for them to crack at the lower spot where it cracked.

Before wasting time and money trying to repair those cracks or replace the turbo, you better check for other cracks. As high as that crack is, I would say that the heads are cracked as well. Their weakest point is between the valves.

If the turbo is all the cracking you have, I know where there is a very good Bushi turbo.
Author:  QJdriver [ Sat May 23, 2015 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
At Texas State RR, we used Belzona when nothing else would work, such as small cracks in steam locomotive cylinder blocks. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it held. But, I don't know about a turbo, I guess you could try it before you tried something more drastic.

Good Luck & WORK SAFE
Author:  John Redden [ Sat May 23, 2015 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
"I know a guy" who had almost identical freeze damage to a Buchi turbo. A couple of things to consider:

1) Even if you are successful in repairing the visible cracks (an unlikely prospect, at best), there are interior walls to the water jacket that suffered equal forces to the exterior walls. We found that after extensive (and expensive) attempts at repair, there was additional damage, inside the turbo, that was not visible. When we put water back in the repaired one, it ran out the oil lines.
The illustrated turbo is (probably) scrap. Disassemble it, and save the rotor. They have value. I have not shopped for 539 parts recently, but they're out there. And people are scrapping Alcos all the time. It might take a little time, but you'll find a turbo.

2) Freeze damage to the turbo does not necessarily indicate freeze damage to the block. On the 539, draining the water from the turbo is a separate, independent step, from draining the block. It is entirely possible that the last owner correctly drained the block, but failed to do so, with the turbo. Don't give up hope on the block, until it's been thoroughly checked out.

JR
Author:  BSOR Patarak [ Sat May 23, 2015 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
We have the GURU valves on the 539s that stay out side. I don't know that you need to have too many on the same locomotive. We plumped lines to dump at a central point. They run from the turbo, water pump and lower block drain to the main drain. In the worst case scenario one can be added in the radiator room, as this area doesn't always drain quick enough to prevent freezing. Does your S2 have the horizontal water tube oil cooler on the left side floor, or is it still using the radiator sections? If it is the water tube, I suggest pulling the end cap each time it is drained so that the tubes can be sucked or blown out. The other update on some of our 539s that caused winter problems was the OGontz thermostat housing located on the left side of the locomotive forward of the block under the expansion tank. It has one water line off the block, the thermostat housing, then a line to the radiator room and one back to the water suction line. We've had these get plugged up and freeze the radiator room while an engine was on a heater...block stayed toasty, but the lower header of the radiator popped.

The GURUs can be costly on initial purchase, but you also need to consider that they do not have a good shelf life. GURU recommends they be sent in YEARLY for calibration. Ours after a few seasons of use begin to randomly pop open at higher and higher temperatures causing premature dumping of the water.

A good plan for draining and storing the engines goes a long way.
Author:  sbhunterca [ Sat May 23, 2015 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
Oh, crap. Had they drained the cab heater lines properly? That's an area often missed by some people.

Makes me glad we have an S-3, no turbo to cause grief.

Be sure to post your findings on the repair, Rick. It's one of those things we never want to deal with, but we all have lots of cast iron parts

Steve Hunter
Author:  Rick Rowlands [ Sat May 23, 2015 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
I found the turbo cracks when I filled the locomotive with water, checking intently for any water to appear trickling down into the sump from any block cracks. There was none. There is a 5" radiator hose at the free end of the engine that upon my first attempt to fill leaked water from the lower joint. I surmise that the loco had this leak when it was last operated, and slowly leaked water out of the system down to that level. This brought the water level under the block level and most likely saved it from freezing. The turbo itself does not drain on its own without opening a drain cock under it.

When I found the turbo cracks I removed the oil drain lines looking for water in the oil passages and found none.

I do have another turbo of a completely different style on our parts S2, but its been sitting without a cap on the stack for 30 years and is 1/3 full of water, so its usefulness is rather doubtful.
Author:  Rick Rowlands [ Sat May 23, 2015 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
Steve brings up an interesting point. Is it possible to operate an S2 without a turbo? I see that the valve timing between the 660 HP and 1000 HP engines are different, but is it off enough to keep the engine from running without the forced air intake? Our use for the loco is to move a couple of cars around a 1/4 mile of track at low speed, so I'm not looking to produce maximum horsepower at peak performance.
Author:  John Redden [ Sat May 23, 2015 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
I think you'll find the fuel mix to be "rich", probably at any throttle setting. As I recall, the big differences between the 660 and 1000 hp engines, aside from the turbo, were the fuel pumps, injectors, and camshaft. This is going from distant memory, so take it for what it's worth.

My guess is that you'd have a lot of black "Alco smoke", all the time, if you tried to run w/o turbo.

JR
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sat May 23, 2015 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When You Don't Drain Your Alco...
I may get roasted for suggesting this, but those ALCO's awaiting death at Colonie, NY - I know at least one has a cracked block, but might there be replacement parts available off them?
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