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 Post subject: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:34 pm 

Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 8:56 pm
Posts: 111
Location: New York
I’ve always had a soft spot for the pioneering days of railroads circa 1830s-50’s and recently been delving into books on the period. I find it surprising how most studies focusing on this time often neglect one of the most obvious early locomotive trademarks; the lack of even the most rudimentary shelter from the elements.

Why did it take decades for a feature that seems so necessary for the safety and comfort of the crew to become standard practice? I can’t find any explanation in anything I’ve read, save for a theory proposed by a curator of the Manchester Museum of Science in a video regarding the Planet replica (the curator claims early locomotive designers were fearful that any enclosure around the backhead could result in carbon monoxide poisoning, but I personally find that a bit far-fetched).

Anyone here have any ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:56 pm 

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:22 am
Posts: 548
At the time
Ships didn't have cabs
Canal Boats didn't have cabs
Horse draw wagons didn't have cabs
There were enclosed horse draw coaches, but no cab for the driver.

Maybe it was just assumed that that class of person didn't need a cab.

-Hudson


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:13 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 914
"
(the curator claims early locomotive designers were fearful that any enclosure around the backhead could result in carbon monoxide poisoning, but I personally find that a bit far-fetched)
"

If you think of the scientific understanding of the era, it is not so far fetched. I read a scan of an enginerring/science publication from the 1830s (I think it was Scientific American) that people would not be able to travel faster than 25 MPH on trains because the air pressure on the face would be so high that the person would not be able to exhale (I wonder how we got to the Moon).

From the time period, comfort and health of employees was not important to the company (in this case railroad). If you were not there to work, you did not get paid.

The railroads were the pioneers in company sponsored health care. It was found that with schedules to keep, the number of people on the call board had to be large in case someone was sick. They found out that keeping their employees healthy using company health care helped reduce the total number of employees on a call board.

I suspect that this need to keep the people healthy was one of the reasones that cabs and enclosures for employees came into being.

Just my speculaton.

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:29 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
At the time, teamsters, farmers, and many others worked outside with no protection from the elements and many still do... why should railroaders have expected anything different?

Makes you glad you live in modern times...

Steve Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1334
Location: South Carolina
I remember reading somewhere that 19th century British "engine drivers" looked at the first cab-equipped locomotives with disdain and basically said "cabs are for wimps".

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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:02 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:57 pm
Posts: 58
Streetcar operators also had no protection from the elements back then. I've also wondered why it took so long for the motormen to be provided an "inside job." And since streetcars were electric, or horse-drawn, the carbon monoxide worry wouldn't apply.


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:21 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
RichardWilliam wrote:
...or horse-drawn, the carbon monoxide worry wouldn't apply.


Well, maybe from the horses...

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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:46 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2477
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Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Thu Aug 08, 2024 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:14 am
Posts: 367
I always found it interesting that once America started putting cabs on locos, they grew fairly large and quite protective from the elements in a short time. Meanwhile, most other countries seemed to have nothing more than a roof and front wall with a few windows, even on road power, into the twentieth century.

Also look at farm tractors. It wasn't until the 1970s that cabs started to become a standard option.


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:44 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Ships didn't have bridges until the mid 1800s and even then, they were only a raised deck. Enclosed bridges/wheel houses didn't come about until well after the 20th century. Even on superships such as RMS Titanic and RMS Mauretania, the bridges were still open.

Until the 1970s, the Royal Navy required all cadets to perform mast manning drill at HMS Ganges. The mast was 143 feet in height and all cadets were required to climb to the half moon platform 130 feet above the parade ground. Climbing to the button was voluntary, but is still considered an honor for the seaman selected to be the "Button Boy" for certain parades. The Button Boy now climbs the Jacobs Ladder to the button at the top of the mast. In the days of HMS Ganges, the Jacobs Ladder ended at the cross piece about fifteen feet below the button. The Button Boy then shimmied up the remaining length of mast and pulled himself up onto the button by taking hold of the lightning arrestor.

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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
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Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Thu Aug 08, 2024 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 721
Kelly Anderson wrote:
You fed Beeferino to the horse?!?


RUSTY!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:34 am
Posts: 544
Location: Granby, CT but formerly Port Jefferson, NY (LIRR MP 57.5)
According to John H. White's magisterial A History of the American Locomotive: Its Development 1830-1850, the earliest evidence for the use of cabs on locomotives are drawings by David Matthew of simple canopies erected over the footplates of the DeWitt Clinton and other early engines on the Mohawk & Hudson RR in the 1830s, as well as a letter from Matthew in the Baldwin papers from 1836 advocating the use of canopies on engines built for use in upstate New York. The idea appears to have caught on with other roads in the region, as Matthias Baldwin himself described "engines completely boxed up thereby keeping the works and the engineer from the weather" on the Utica & Schenectady RR just a few years later. White therefore describes the development of the cab as a function of both extreme climate and democratic inclinations in the early United States. These early structures weren't called cabs, however, but rather "houses".

As for when they started to be called "cabs", the Oxford English Dictionary cites the 1864 edition of Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language as the earliest known published use of the term "cab" in a railroad context. This would be consistent with an American (rather than British) origin sometime in the mid-19th century, as others have suggested above. It's supposed to be a shortened form of "cabriolet" (a type of horse-drawn carriage), just like the use of "cab" to mean a taxi.

I wonder, has anyone tried doing a Google Books n-gram search to push back the earliest date? I'm sure it goes back quite a bit farther than 1864. (What did the Civil War US Military RR call them, for example?)

-Philip Marshall


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:47 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 1184
Location: Tucson, Arizona
philip.marshall wrote:
According to John H. White's magisterial A History of the American Locomotive: Its Development 1830-1850, the earliest evidence for the use
I wonder, has anyone tried doing a Google Books n-gram search to push back the earliest date? I'm sure it goes back quite a bit farther than 1864. (What did the Civil War US Military RR call them, for example?)

-Philip Marshall


USMRR referred to them as cabs and had two classes of cabs. Locomotives to be used near the front were fitted with an armored cab that was sheathed with iron plate and had rounded window openings. The rounded openings were intentionally used to reduce the target area for sharpshooters. Locomotives with conventional wooden cabs were restricted to use behind the front.

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 Post subject: Re: Lack of cabs on early 19th Century locomotives
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:10 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:25 am
Posts: 1025
Thanks for the discussion. I have noticed the meager to nonexistent shelter for early day engine crews, and had wondered about it, especially in rainy climates, or places where harsh winters are part of life.

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