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| Of Freeloaders, Guest Engines, and....... https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3816 |
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| Author: | Howard P. [ Wed Aug 28, 2002 11:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Of Freeloaders, Guest Engines, and....... |
.....the REAL issue. Ah yes, the REAL issue is---- Money. Or, more precisely, the lack thereof. This stuff is horrendously expensive to run, restore, preserve, conserve and even to "just let it sit". With every dollar so dear, and too many locomotives and projects chasing too few dollars, some of us react by pointing at the "freeloaders" and thinking they are stealing from the "operators". Good points have been made by both "sides". If a mainline trip sells out, and the operators can not add any more cars (and seats), then the operator should be satisfied with the revenue that trip will bring in. If an operator consistiently sells out their trips, so much the better-- they have a successful "business". In those circumstances, the "chaser" is not taking revenue away from the operator. A comment was made about "offering a product that buyers want to purchase". The Ohio Central (and numerous other) photo charter trips are a great way to address that issue. The serious photographers want a different product than the riders. Give them that product and they will buy. That seems to open up an additional market, in my opinion. That said, I think the chasers should "do the right thing" and make a contribution to the locomotive owning and operating group. Send a $20 or $50 check. If you get some really spectactular results, send some good photos to the group (after all, they are too busy running the damn thing to get good photos!), they might like to have some good PR photos for the file. If you take, you should put something back. If not, then someday there won't be anything to chase. Guest Engines are the norm in Great Britain. The concept of ATSF 3751 strutting her stuff on the GCRY for a year is simply mouth-watering. The devil is in the details (as it usually is), but I think that is the wave of the future for the "big engines", if they are going to have any future. The large shortlines and regionals are the places that we'll see big steam in the future-- less fuss, no need for all-day marathons, and the ability to develop a market in a given area (like High Iron years ago, with the CNJ and EL trips-- lots of repeat customers). Just had to stick my two cents in on this one. I remember the "Bob Barbera-D&H Triple-header Tarp Trip" (that never ran, and got Steamtown such great publicity) all too well. And, I've been reading too many copies of "Heritage Railway" lately (all the Brit locos that move around between "railway centres"). hpincus@mindspring.com |
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| Author: | Superheater [ Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Of Freeloaders, Guest Engines, and....... |
Ah yes, the REAL issue is---- Money. Or, more precisely, the lack thereof Really? I think thats our first mistake and offer the following anecdotal evidence in respectful disagreement Even now in the post "irrational exuberabance" era, there's a LOT of money. I see people throwing 75 and 80bucks to listen to some foul-mouthed criminal wannabee that can't produce a single melodious note or some silly self-indulgent sl** who is equally devoid of musical talent and can't finish a show. I see people popping for a minimum of 35 bucks to watch ballplayers who make TENS OF MILLIONS of dollars a YEAR to PLAY a game and are about to strike for more for the second time in 10 years. I see people spending 2.50 for something that is laden with fat, has the pleasing taste of cardboard and washing it down with sugar-laden sulfuric acid. I see people spending hundreds of dollars computers that have made "planned obselesence" an art form and work wonderfully-as long as you throw another 200 bucks into them to protect against twisted little twerps doing electronic vandalism. Oh yeah and paying Microsoft to shaft us every which way but loose. I see people throwing 7.50-9.00 to sit in seats for an hour and a half which as best as I can guess are designed to produce either sterility or sciatica (both?) and listen to an unending spew of f-bombs masquerading as art. Thats the commercial junk-except for Pro wrestling and a few other assorted travesties. Then there's the money that goes to universities with well paid, underworked professors selling Marxism, the "arrrtists" whose medium is as often as not their own excrement, and a list of other gov't boondoggles books have been written on... There's no lack of money. It may not and may never come our way, but there's lots of money. It'll take a smarter man than me to get Preservation to engage in a little collaboration and to get the public at large to appreciate our blood sweat and fears but ITS OUT THERE. superheater@beer.com |
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| Author: | Paul H [ Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Of Freeloaders, Guest Engines, and....... |
Boy, I am simply amazed at the attitude of some of you folks regarding photographers. Such hatred that is being spewed forth. The fact is that society and its laws are dictating the astronomical expenses in putting on a steam program. It is very frustrating for those who love steam that it has become so difficult to put on an excursion. While that is unfortunate, it is not the fault of those who wish to follow and photograph a steam train. These folks have been around since steam was removed from regular service. They are not the cause of all of the current problems. Get a grip, folks. |
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| Author: | Bill Conklin [ Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Lemonade stand economics |
More or less: Find out if anyone is thirsty so you know how much to make, Buy your supplies wisely, Mix it carefully so you dont spill, Ask a higher price than your supplies and labor cost, Make sure your sign says Lemonade for Sale, Be nice to thirsty people and smile a lot, Dont spill the drink on the customer, Count your money carefully, Take good care of the spoon and the Pitcher so you can make more Lemonade to sell. Guys, we let emotion drive our investments and sentiment drive our plans. Plainly put, you cant sell product at a loss and still stay in business- that is, if you *are* running a business. The mixed identity and mission of many organizations blurs the line for some folks. Remember the non-profit discussion earlier on this board ? The real root cause is folks are running an unsustainable expense to revenue operation. (see Amtrak, Enron, WorldCom, etc.) We all are scared that if we asked the public to pay even the break-even cost of giving them a ride, they will spit in our face. Which is why we see trains being parked due to "rising costs ". ( And this is in an arena where more than half the the needed labor- typically the major cost factor in producing goods, is FREE !) Sure, we dont like it when others profit from out efforts while we are stretched to make ends meet, but its "our bad" for launching a bad business plan in the first place. staybolt@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Rob Davis [ Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Getting my grip |
Paul, No one here (as far as I can tell) is blaming freeloading as the cause for all the ills. I think the previous two posts from H.P. and SuperH both touch on the greater issues. The problem with the chasers (and I say that because photographers are not the problem at hand, it's the chasing freeloaders) is that when you are the car host on 3/4's full excursion and look out the dutch door at your breathern taking a free ride down I-whatever and then rushing to FotoFarm to get in the latest issue of Railgrump while you are still washing down coach bathrooms, well... that can tee you off. Why? Because you are busting your rump out of love (or untreated insanity) to put on a show and there are people out there who are ready to take a freebie off you... people who share your passion and interests. Do you think I could stand outside the Meadowlands to listen to a Stones concert for free just becasue I don't want to pay to get it? Noooooo waaaaayyyyy. Why should fantrips be any different? I guess "freeloaders" are our version of "Napster." They are not going to go away, and we need to figure out how to not get po'd from it. This is a hot topic. Someone pushed the button. It's not the only hot button, by far. All the best, Rob Davis > Boy, I am simply amazed at the attitude of > some of you folks regarding photographers. > Such hatred that is being spewed forth. > The fact is that society and its laws are > dictating the astronomical expenses in > putting on a steam program. It is very > frustrating for those who love steam that it > has become so difficult to put on an > excursion. While that is unfortunate, it is > not the fault of those who wish to follow > and photograph a steam train. These folks > have been around since steam was removed > from regular service. They are not the cause > of all of the current problems. > Get a grip, folks. Ahead of the Torch trains@robertjohndavis.com |
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| Author: | Rob Davis [ Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Getting my grip |
Paul, No one here (as far as I can tell) is blaming freeloading as the cause for all the ills. I think the previous two posts from H.P. and SuperH both touch on the greater issues. The problem with the chasers (and I say that because photographers are not the problem at hand, it's the chasing freeloaders) is that when you are the car host on 3/4's full excursion and look out the dutch door at your breathern taking a free ride down I-whatever and then rushing to FotoFarm to get in the latest issue of Railgrump while you are still washing down coach bathrooms, well... that can tee you off. Why? Because you are busting your rump out of love (or untreated insanity) to put on a show and there are people out there who are ready to take a freebie off you... people who share your passion and interests. Do you think I could stand outside the Meadowlands to listen to a Stones concert for free just becasue I don't want to pay to get it? Noooooo waaaaayyyyy. Why should fantrips be any different? I guess "freeloaders" are our version of "Napster." They are not going to go away, and we need to figure out how to not get po'd from it. This is a hot topic. Someone pushed the button. It's not the only hot button, by far. All the best, Rob Davis > Boy, I am simply amazed at the attitude of > some of you folks regarding photographers. > Such hatred that is being spewed forth. > The fact is that society and its laws are > dictating the astronomical expenses in > putting on a steam program. It is very > frustrating for those who love steam that it > has become so difficult to put on an > excursion. While that is unfortunate, it is > not the fault of those who wish to follow > and photograph a steam train. These folks > have been around since steam was removed > from regular service. They are not the cause > of all of the current problems. > Get a grip, folks. Ahead of the Torch trains@robertjohndavis.com |
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| Author: | Rob Davis [ Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ... and glass houses |
Paul, Another part of the freeloading frenzy is that many of us who have "reformed" were once in a cavalcade of freeloading nuts on the highway. I used to do it. In fact, I remember when I stopped. It was 1986 and the BMRDG was running the '02 and Four-and-a-Quarter for a railfan weekend. I had ridden the line a few times prior, so I chased the whole day... but I bought a ticket. Actually, I bought a ticket and handed it right back to Thurman to resell to someone else so that I didn't reserve a seat I wouldn't use. Since then, I've tried to practice what I preach. I've chased a few sell outs, and I've chased one day and ridden the next. Either way, I know that dead presidents speak louder than shutter-clicks. What was the turning point? It was when I started to realize that chasing without paying was really counter to the hobby and the history I so loved. That's not sanctimony. Far from it. I ain't puuuuurfect. But I do have the guilt now. Heck, I was chasing the weekly freight on the Northern Vermont last month and they are so down and out I felt guilty about not slipping them a $20!!!!!!!! ;-) Rob Ahead of the Torch trains@robertjohndavis.com |
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