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End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38675		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  o anderson [ Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
Vancouver BC is getting rid of its BCE interurban cars. This was posted on the "DowntownHistoricRailway" yahoo group:

Quote:
The City of Vancouver is decommissioning the Downtown Historic Railway (The
Olympic Line) and disposing of the interurban cars. Car #1207 is going back to
it's Seattle owner. Apparently, there is nothing we can do about that. Car
#1231 was suppose to go to Translink. They would like to have it, but don't
have any place to store it. BCIT expressed interest in housing it at the
Annacis Island campus, but have now declined. Do you have, or know of, any
warehouse in which we can store this railcar until City Council comes to its
senses, or we find a sponsor to reactivate the streetcar line?
It would be a shame if this 1913 *Vancouver* historical artifact were lost
forever.

The City wants the intrurban gone yesterday, and if it isn't, they have
even suggested scraping to get action.
Author:  John T [ Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
Contact this outfit at Cloverdale, BC.

http://www.fvhrs.org/

The have a sister car and seem to be doing good things.
Author:  Charlie [ Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
So who owns the 1207? I'd sure hate to see it go back to Snoqualmie.

This seems to be a bad time for tourist trolley lines. Someone with deep pockets could make a heckuva trolley museum with all of the cars that are available.
Author:  Dave [ Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
This operation lasted since the 1990s, so it did have a good run. It served a worthy purpose when it was built, then it was cut down by the Olympics to the extent that it's only purpose became a part time limited hours tourist attraction. They persevered as long as they could, but their purpose and usefulness has waned......

The most successful heritage lines do more than one thing - circulators, legitimate transit, support development or redevelopment, act as an integral part of a series of tourist attractions, besides being a historic interpreter and pleasant diversion as well. Once you lose a critical mass of useful purpose, the slide into irrelevancy and eventual dissolution begins.

Charlotte Trolley, for example, did the work of setting the stage for what's become a very successful light rail system so well, the light rail supplanted them from any access to the track. They still exist as a chartered corporation with a small storefront space that few people find, but the loss of relevancy and shrinking of purpose has all but killed them off.

I think in many cases there's a limited life span unintentionally designed in from the start. We need - if we want to stay relevant - to be constantly expanding our programming to supplant the programming that becomes impossible or unnecessary as we evolve.
Author:  John T [ Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
The late Dick Thrash was the owner of BC Electric car 1207. I have no idea who would be the owner now. There is no reasion for it to go back to Snoqualmie, WA.
Author:  WesternStar [ Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
Charlie wrote:
So who owns the 1207? I'd sure hate to see it go back to Snoqualmie.


Not sure what Charlie's issue may be with Snoqualmie, except for maybe the perils of private ownership when there is no agreement to benefit the mission of the non-profit organization. Or perhaps Charlie is a Mission-focus evangelist. Both would be laudable.

Dick Thrash was a great supporter and a wonderful person to talk with who possessed a wealth of information; he remained active for many years as both an Officer and Trustee. I am not sure about the circumstances of this acquisition that occurred in the 1960s while Dick was either a Trustee or Officer, but I do know a similar transaction - if it occurred as described in this thread - would be prohibited today because it would violate the conflict of interest policy. Besides, private equipment at a non-profit museum needs a purpose tied to the organization's mission because otherwise it is either an excess benefit transaction or a transaction (probably) subject to unrelated business income tax (UBIT). And ownership by a current or former trustee or officer could be construed as self-dealing, another situation for non-profits to avoid.

With beautiful buildings (OK, I'm biased), a robust attendance (138,000 served; more than 48,000 rode the train), and a mission focused on Washington State, there is no particular reason or benefit in bringing the BC Electric 1207 back to Snoqualmie.

So speaking of mission, does anyone want to buy a Kennecott Copper locomotive?

Richard Anderson
Executive Director
Northwest Railway Museum
Author:  John T [ Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
Dick Thrash bought BC Electric car 1207 late in 1959. It was shipped to Seattle on its own wheels by the Great Northern. This was two years after the founding of the Puget Sound Ry Historical Assn. (ie Snoqualmie) At that time all of the equipment was privetly owned with the idea that the club would by it some day. As we now know "some day" never came in many cases.
Author:  WesternStar [ Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
John T wrote:
Dick Thrash bought BC Electric car 1207 late in 1959. It was shipped to Seattle on its own wheels by the Great Northern. This was two years after the founding of the Puget Sound Ry Historical Assn. (ie Snoqualmie) At that time all of the equipment was privetly owned with the idea that the club would by it some day. As we now know "some day" never came in many cases.


Well, not all the equipment. And Dick Thrash - who was the museum's President in 1957-58 and Secretary in 1958-59 - participated in the purchase negotiations using museum letterhead. My point is that this appears to outsiders as an unethical practice. To this day, many people assume the 1207 was owned by the Northwest Railway Museum.

The Board Officers should not have been negotiating a purchase in the name of the museum if the museum did not have the resources to close the deal. (Question: could a reasonable person assume that from the very beginning the individual(s) intended to personally purchase the artifact and simply used the name of the museum to courier favor of the seller?) And the privately owned artifact should not have been shipped in the name of the Museum in 1959, and again in 1966 when it was shipped to Snoqualmie. So, arguably, the Board Officers involved in this situation appear to have violated their fiduciary trust.

I hope the 1207 is able to remain in British Columbia. It is a 56 seat unit built by the BC Electric in their Kitsilano shops. It is a stunning example of the cars once common along the Marpole line and down the Arbutus Corridor into Kitsilano on the line the BC Electric leased from the CPR into the 1980s. Interestingly, that is the same line the City of Vancouver is trying to purchase from the CPR for below market value, and in response the CPR is reactivating the line for rail car storage.

Richard Anderson
Executive Director
Northwest Railway Museum
Author:  Bobharbison [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
I seem to vaguely recall that Byron Cole of the Ballard Terminal Railroad may be the owner, or one of the owners, of this car.

Does that jog anyone's memory? Can anyone confirm or deny this? This is based on a recollection of a conversation from about 15 years ago.
Author:  Dave [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
The world was a very different one in the Eisenhower era than it is now - I wouldn't condemn the management at that time for doing things that were not that uncommon back then, but would certainly seem questionable today at the very least. The greatest minds in the world once thought the earth was flat.......
Author:  FVHRS [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
John T wrote:
The late Dick Thrash was the owner of BC Electric car 1207. I have no idea who would be the owner now. There is no reasion for it to go back to Snoqualmie, WA.



Dick owned 1207 along with Byron Cole. Byron is now the owner. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballard_Terminal_Railroad for Byron's business
Author:  FVHRS [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
John T wrote:
I hope the 1207 is able to remain in British Columbia.


It will. Stay Tuned.

Robert Ashton, Director
FVHRS
Author:  FVHRS [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
The American owner has donated BCER 1207, a 1905 BCER built interurban to the Fraser Valley Heritage Railway Society. Details of the donation and the move were worked out between the owner, the City of Vancouver and the FVHRS.

The move from its Vancouver location to the FVHRS's Cloverdale car barn will take place in early November.

Originally built as "Steveston" in 1905 it was rebuilt in July 1912 and numbered as 1207. It has C-60 trucks and GE 204 -75 hp motors. It seats 56 passengers. It was one of the 4 interurbans that did a VIP special run later in the AM on Feb. 28th, 1958 after our 1225 had done the last scheduled run earlier that morning from Steveston ( small "village" in the City of Richmond, B.C.) to the Marpole Stn ( in Vancouver). The ground level rail era of public transportation had ended in Greater Vancouver.

The car will join the other BCER built wood car owned by the FVHRS, BCER 1304 now under rehabilitation.

Attachments:
1207.jpg
1207.jpg [ 50.39 KiB | Viewed 9352 times ]
Author:  Brian Norden [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
Great to hear!
:)
Author:  o anderson [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: End of the line for another urban heritage trolley
Congratulations! Was there any discussion about the BCER flatbed freight motor and snowplow in Snoqualmie? It is a kit, but not impossible.
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