People anxious to keep the north end of the Adirondack Scenic Railroad from becoming a trail are planning to hold a "Rally for the Rails" at Saranac Lake Union Depot, Saranac Lake, N.Y., on November 7 at 12:00 Noon.

The event is to demonstrate support for the railroad with a show of numbers, a record of the visit with an aerial photograph, and will also feature speeches about the importance of keeping this rail line.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... l?nav=5240

A lot of us can't go (including myself), but others who have taken a love to this railroad may want to attend.

I really am beginning to despise RTT.

I really am beginning to despise RTT.

From Facebook

Friends of the Rails - Adirondack Rail Corridor shared Christopher Santa's post.
14 hrs ·

Via Keith Gorgas: My friend Christopher Santa, a local businessman who I've always found to be one of the most honest people around, after 20 years of dealing with him, wrote this. As far as I know, Chris is neither a RR buff, nor a snowmobile zealot. I think it is a very well considered, objective analysis of the issues that face the Tri Lakes area of the Adirondacks.

Christopher Santa
November 1 at 5:32pm · North Elba, NY, United States · Edited ·

I have spent a number of hours educating myself with the facts regarding the Great Adirondack Train Debate. Now, before I get hate mail from the Trail peeps or the Snow Machine peeps, Cyclists peeps or the Dog Walking peeps, I call it the Great Train Debate because the TRAIN is what is at stake. Since 1892 this has been a rail bed. Today even under NYS law it is defined as a Transportation Corridor falling under the NYS DOT Rail Plan last published in 2009.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/…/State%20Rail%20Plan%202009-02-10.p…
If the rails are removed, for whatever future intended purpose, the train is gone and it is gone forever. It is this simple. Bah humbug to rail banking, the DEC and APA have said as much. Volumes have been written on both sides of Train Debate. Studies citing this and that are so common you could TP BOTH the APA and the DEC buildings with them. That these studies come to different conclusions is a prima facie case they are based upon opinion not fact. Fact is irrefutable and unchanging. Fact is stated above. No matter what you do with the corridor post rail removal it will NOT be this train or any train using it. In the March 1996 Final Management Plan it was clearly stated that it was impossible to know what the economic impact of any use of the corridor might be with anything approaching a degree of certainty. After all the yelling, screaming, conjecture and misinformation what we are left with is this question: Should a public good, (defined as an economic term) of a unique and irreplaceable type, be destroyed and replaced with another common and easily instituted public good of an unknown economic value? This is the question that the public and the public’s leaders must answer. What I write below is MY OPINION. If I had to make this decision this is what I would decide. I have based my decision on the following: 1. This is a public good owned by all the people of NYS and thus the needs of the entire State need tol be considered. 2. Public goods are intended to serve a specific purpose and they are intended to do what private enterprise cannot or will not do because the marginal economics do not allow it. (see, building roads, water systems, lunar travel, et.al.) 3. The potential economic benefit to both the State and the Region which the public good serves, now and in the future, is a strong consideration.

To Whit: No compelling case can be made that the removal of the Rail Infrastructure on this corridor either in whole or in part can be made which will justify the destruction of this irreplaceable public good. Even the idea that the rail section from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid would be better used as a paved trail cannot be justified as Lake Placid is a destination tourist location and is a logical end for passenger service from Central NYS. Trails are abundant in the Northeast as well as many other parts of the country and this is used as a selling point for the Trail peeps argument. The trail which could be created here would not be unique. Since much of this corridor is bordered by private land, environmentally sensitive lands or NYS wilderness, the amenities that cyclists and hikers enjoy on long trails (picnic areas, camping areas, retail services) cannot be constructed. It would suffer from competition from other trails nationwide as a destination. No evidence has been shown that this trail would not simply be an ‘added attraction” to tourists who already plan to visit. Needed marketing and trail infrastructure would quickly displace any economic impact for the foreseeable future. The benefit to NYS residents in general would be negligible. Snowmobile use in the winter is potentially an economic benefit which cannot be ignored. Here though we have to ask the same simple question which we did for the hiker/cyclist trail people. Will this add new economic value or simply be an augmentation to those trails already existing? Also what must be asked is who benefits? From what I have read and watched (video of local argument in favor of Snow Machines) it seems that along this line there are 4 or 5 distinct local Snowmobile Clubs from Lake Placid to Old Forge. These Clubs claim to do maintenance on the line and grooming in the winter. I do not know the veracity of these claims. One can assume that they must do grooming at a minimum. The snowmobiler argument is because of the rails, ties and fasteners the season for which the rails can be used as a snowmobile route is shorter than if this was a simple gravel corridor. I don’t think anyone can argue this point, it is a given. The tracks though are used during the height of the season and as long as snow is sufficient. Snowmobile Clubs are paid to groom this corridor and do so. Snowmobile tourists plan their vacations at the height of the season (for obvious reasons). The early and late shoulder seasons this corridor is mostly used by the local population. With these things said the conclusion can only be even though snowmobile tourism is a fact and perhaps even represents a good economic winter engine, no one can actually claim that any more economic impact can be assumed than what currently exists. This actually may wind up hurting areas of NYS which now count on their existing trail system to attract snowmobile tourists during the shoulder seasons. Not that this is a zero sum game but it is unwise to shit where you sleep. The primary benefit of the increased use during the shoulder season would be to the local population who snowmobile. Since the economic benefit is conjecture and iffy at best and the benefit to the greater citizens of NYS (remember: owners of the public good) is non existent, ripping up this infrastructure so snowmobiles may use it more is certainly negative. Similar argument can be made for anything you can think of. OK. This said. No better use of this corridor yet exists. The rail line should stay along the entire corridor. What ever good economic benefit can be derived from having this unique and irreplaceable public good should be explored. My last point is very unlibertarian of me since I am always skeptical about public goods which can and have been done by private enterprise. This may be an exception. This falls into the Locke Proviso theory for those who know it. Trains where once THE transportation and freight choice of Americans. As far a freight we can see the value of railroads in these being able to effectively make the XL pipeline debate moot by making a rolling pipeline. Vermont has spend huge public moneys increasing the Amtrak service and to good effect. North Carolina is planning a huge new rail “union station” in Charlotte. Trains are efficient and environmentally sound. We all know why (or should know) private enterprise was forced to abandon an excellent business. Government. Both in regulation to support Unions and in the creation of the Eisenhower Highway System the great and numerous railroad firms of the past have fallen one-by-one. Not because trains are a bad idea, the rest of the world would beg to differ on that one, but because our government destroyed this business so that it could transform it into a public good. They have done similar things to the electricity, telecom and now (hopefully not) the internet businesses. Be this as it may. Most railways are now public goods. Given this, the best and really the only smart thing to do with the Remsen to Lake Placid Rail Line is to restore it FULLY and COMPLETLY. 45 Millions they say, fine. That is a proverbial drop in the bucket for the NYS DOT. How many millions are spent on Amtrak? RESTORE the line to class 3 and subsidize full passenger and freight service by private enterprise the same why it is done for airlines who service small airports. The kick against economic development in the Adirondacks has always been lack of accessibility. This would be a boon to every little burgh on the line. Industry is what builds communities. Good paying secure jobs which don’t count on the vagaries of the weather or the whims of travels. These paychecks raise families, support local business, pay school and property taxes. The Adirondacks win and the citizens of NYS have a valuable public good.

1869 golden spike ceremony connecting the east/west with railroad. No automobiles.
No snowmobiles.

You have to spend money to remove the railroad and spend money installing the trail and support structiure. Save your bucks, stopit.
Whats already there works.

Well, it looks like about 350 people showed up, and from the photos, everyone seemed to have a good time. Wish I could have been there!

Newspaper story:

http://www.pressrepublican.com/news/loc ... 11596.html

Quote: "Since 1986, Rails-to-Trails Conservancy has been the No. 1 supporter and defender of these priceless public corridors." It goes on to say "Built on unused, former railroad corridors." I took this from the foreword of a book fittingly on the rail-trails of New York. Might I ask why they choose to target and try to destroy an intact, active railroad instead of sticking to their president's mission statement? There are plenty of abandoned lines out there that will inevitably never see another train that would be perfect for becoming a trail, instead of trying to seal the doom of a line only with the possibility for being abandoned.

Mainly it is because the other lines don't go where they want to go, and/or they are not walking distance from their house.

From my office in Reston, VA, I can see both the old Washington & Old Dominion Railroad right-of-way, which is now the W&OD trail, and the new Silver Line Metro to Dulles Airport. The lines are basically parallel, and about 200 yards apart. The construction of the new line is going to cost somewhere between $2.7B and $4B in taxpayer dollars. Can anyone point to a case where a line that was "banked" under RTT was ever rebuilt as a rail line?

nyc1115_wv,

I don't know your background, but by the sounds of your comment you haven't worked in the core (planners and project head level) of an all volunteer non-profit, based around heavy equipment. Nothing happens as quick as you think it will at the beginning, money comes in slower then you think it will over time, and stuff usually doesn't happen till supplies equipment and crew reach a critical mass.

Probably if the manure hadn't hit the proverbial fan the stuff they have done this year would have been spread across the next few years, probably one at a time. Unless you have unlimited funds it takes time to get all the materials lined up to expand track or to add an enhancement larger than plantings and paint, then add the complications of foul weather or bad planning and the plans hit the skids as other stuff get prioritized based on emergencies (perceived or real).

Take track reconditioning before you start (unless you plan on killing your volunteers) you first need:
1. Backhoe and other equipment to ditch and handle materials
2. Track equipment:
-Manual (jacks, picks, shovels, wrenches, hammers (hand mauls and pneumatic spikers), tampers (manual and pneumatic, Prybars)
-Machinery mounted (ballast tampers, ballast carts, rail carts, tie inserters, crane (tie handler or larger)
3. access and funds for ties, rail, bolts, plates & ballast stone
4. crews that know how to use the above equipment that show up regularly
5. motive power to get the crews out to the work sites.

Once you have the track reconditioned for a usable length, then you need ride equipment:
1. motive power in running order to pull a ride train
2. rolling stock in usable condition to safely carry passengers
3. support facility and equipment to maintain the above equipment
4. crews that are trained to operate and maintain above equipment (separate from the track crew)
5. facilities to support the public face of the operation (station[s], bathrooms, visitor center[optional] and the related crews
6. Additional motive power and rolling stock in working order to replace equipment that needs work due to wear.

When you have the above in use then you can start thinking about big draw events like Thomas
1. $60,000 payed before the blue devil arrives (last I heard)
2. large staff for the event (15 per day IIRC)
3. large lot for the tents other related rides for the event and parking
4. length of track for a good ride
5. If you are lucky you will recoup the prepayment if the weather is good

Then there is everything else that needs to be done on the organizing, and running of the non-profit group to keep the government happy. Then add in the normal snafu of `we have plenty of time to do ...' habit of most humans, and time gets wasted because of the illusion of plenty of time to get it done.

regards,
Rich C.

Here's a November 9, 2015 report about the rally, by trail proponent Brian Mann:

North County Public Radio - Train boosters: fight over Adirondack track is far from over

It's not worth much, but you can at least help to keep the trail people from crowing too loudly:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... il/id/423/

And what some see as a backroom deal:

http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2015/ ... eason.html

I know this is probably a stupid idea, but has anyone compared the actual cost of removing the rail and paving it vs. installing crossing pads for the length of the trail or at least the snowmobile area?? Of course you would have to use the hollow flangeway fillers, If you are unfamiliar with them, they are a hollow square rubber tube installed in the flangeways, RR equipment is heavy to crush the tube, but pedestrian traffic will not thus eliminating tripping hazards. Usually they are installed between the tracks and asphalt/concrete, but I wouldn't doubt that crossing companies don't make versions of their gauge panels, with it incorporated in the design. Speeders and light MoW vehicles will have to be weighted otherwise they will not follow the tracks.



They could also be installed in the areas where there is no clearance for dual RoWs (rail + trail).

Just an idea,

Rich C.

It's an excellent proposal, and in fact has been done in some locations, and can even be done with fine gravel (which is often used for trail surfaces). It has been done, and in the good old USA, too--but the trail people will have none of it. A fellow named Michael Helbing, who is a big trail supporter, actually suggested this in social media at the Catskills, and the trail people deleted his comments, his photos, and blocked him.

And those guys are nice compared to the nasty crowd in the Adirondacks.

There is no other way to put it, but we have to face it--we have people who hate us and what we do. Not just don't like us, or care about us--nno one should expect everyone to like trains--but these people actually hate us.

Spend some time at the ARTA Green and Snow sites if you don't believe me.