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Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39440		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Steamguy73 [ Fri May 27, 2016 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
So I was just watching a documentary about the history of model trains, from the history channel series "Trains Unlimited." Pretty cool, I reccomend it. But now to the topic. Cowen, the president of Lionel trains, always favored the NYC and the Hudsons. But why was there no attempt from him to save one? It was possible to do, as the NYC in 1956 gave away the 3001 to the T&P. And railroads had seen pressure from O. Winston Link to save the N&W 611. Why didn't someone like Cowen try to save a Hudson? Perhaps he never knew, or perhaps he tried, but failed. Or maybe it was due to the amount of money his company was making decreasing. Any more ideas, or any sources from him in particular? I don't expect to find any, but this is a really good question.
Author:  Ed Horan [ Fri May 27, 2016 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
A brief history of Lionel and the Cowens can be found in Lionel, A Collectors Guide & History, written by Tom McComas & James Tuohy. Lionel's sales were falling off, and Joshua retired in 1958 and his son Lawrence sold the family's interest in the company in 1959.
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Tue May 31, 2016 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
I would suggest that the end of steam and the rise of Project Mercury were two major nails in the coffin of post-war Lionel trains. The story is better discussed on other sites, but the quality and variety of the catalog trains just plummeted after the 1950's. To this day, post-WW2 Lionels are the gold standard for most collectors.

Regarding the scrapping of the NYC Hudson fleet, I would love to see some hard evidence to state, all these locomotive are to be scrapped. There are plenty of stories damning Alfred Perlman, and I tend to agree with those theories, as one can easily find pictures of Hudson not yet scrapped, but with spokes specifically cut out of the drivers to intentionally damage them. Likewise, I heard a story that he offered a Hudson to the Smithsonian and the museum turned it down. This, I find nearly impossible to believe. Wouldn't there be a letter in some archive? It will go down in history as one of the worst losses in preservation, whatever the case. The Niagaras are a case in their own right, but the Hudsons? Easily on of the most celebrated machines in American history.
The steam "haul-ocaust" is rife with stories like this one. Just pick a railroad and poular locomotive design.
Author:  NH0401 [ Tue May 31, 2016 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
There is a book, written by ex-NYC official Karl Borntrager (IIRC), which indicates some steam power was 'traded-in' against new diesel locos (EMD ?) by the NYC.

Dave
Author:  Dave Lewandoski [ Tue May 31, 2016 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
JL is the one that sold controlling interest in the company, not Lawrence. After Roy Cohn took over, Lawrence was forced out. I'd say Cowan favored the NYC because they and his company were head quartered in NYC. And if there had been money to make by saving a Hudson, he might have been in on it. But there wasn't, and he was ready to retire.
Author:  Peter Nicholson [ Tue May 31, 2016 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
I have Karl Borntrager's book ("Keeping the Railroads Running - Fifty Years on the New York Central", Hastings House, 1974) and do not recall anything in it regarding the scrapping of steam locomotives. What he did say regarding the transition to diesels was that Al Perlman thought the NYC should get the same annual mileage out of its engines as the Santa Fe, and didn't buy enough of them at first.

He also said in a private conversation that steam was doomed as soon as diesels were introduced into the yards, as the railroad could not afford to have two separate sets of shops for its motive power. His book makes an interesting read if you can find a copy.
Author:  PMC [ Tue May 31, 2016 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
I saw a story once about how, when Perlman was the president of the Rio Grande prior to the New York Central, the guy who started the Colorado Railroad Museum was able to get a friend of his who worked as an agent for the Colorado & Southern to write a freight tariff for ex-RG steam engines from Utah (where the Rio Grande had sold them to a scrapper) to Golden on the C&S, even though the C&S didn't have track in Utah. Perlman apparently had been blocking their transit after the museum bought them believing them to be hard on track, but once the tariff was written the Rio Grande was obligated to honor it for interchange. Perlman apparently blew a fuse, and I would guess he decided when he went to the NYC not to let it happen again. I may have some of the details wrong after 30 or so years.
Author:  John E. McNamara [ Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joshua Lionel Cowen, and the NYC
Peter Nicholson wrote:
I have Karl Borntrager's book ("Keeping the Railroads Running - Fifty Years on the New York Central", Hastings House, 1974) and do not recall anything in it regarding the scrapping of steam locomotives. What he did say regarding the transition to diesels was that Al Perlman thought the NYC should get the same annual mileage out of its engines as the Santa Fe, and didn't buy enough of them at first.

He also said in a private conversation that steam was doomed as soon as diesels were introduced into the yards, as the railroad could not afford to have two separate sets of shops for its motive power. His book makes an interesting read if you can find a copy.


I have a copy I'd be happy to sell. Please PM me if interested.
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