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EBT 18 & 29 come home
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Author:  Bob [ Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  EBT 18 & 29 come home
On September 5, 2002, EBT combine 18 and baggage 29 turned their wheels on EBT rails for the first time in over 40 years. Both cars were purchased by the Friends of the East Broad Top at the July 20 liquidation of the Sundown & Southern. Venezia Enterprises handled the move for FEBT. In spite of the cars' deteriorated condition from several decades of exposure to the elements, they suffered no visible damage during the journey. They will spend the winter indoors, courtesy of the EBTRR, pending development of a plan to restore and return them to service. Photos of the unloading are at the link below. Thanks to all who helped to bring these two EBT cars home.

Bob Farquharson
FEBT VP

EBT 18 & 29 Come Home
r.r.farquharson@att.net
Author:  K.R. Bell [ Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EBT 18 & 29 come home
Congrats, guys! It's great to see EBT equipment back home--must be very exciting.

> On September 5, 2002, EBT combine 18 and
> baggage 29 turned their wheels on EBT rails
> for the first time in over 40 years. Both
> cars were purchased by the Friends of the
> East Broad Top at the July 20 liquidation of
> the Sundown & Southern. Venezia
> Enterprises handled the move for FEBT. In
> spite of the cars' deteriorated condition
> from several decades of exposure to the
> elements, they suffered no visible damage
> during the journey. They will spend the
> winter indoors, courtesy of the EBTRR,
> pending development of a plan to restore and
> return them to service. Photos of the
> unloading are at the link below. Thanks to
> all who helped to bring these two EBT cars
> home.

> Bob Farquharson
> FEBT VP
Author:  Rick [ Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EBT 18 & 29 come home
Hmmm. I think a couple of years ago I called Mike Venezia, the fellow who handled the shipments, about moving a railcar on its own wheels and he said that he did not do such a thing. Yet the EBT cars were moved on their own wheels on the trailer.

My latest FEBT newsletter says the shipping costs will be in the neighborhood of $34,500. I would be interested in seeing Mr. Venezia's cost breakdown, just where that $34 grand went to. I'm not saying the the amount was too high, it might be in line, but I am curious as to what other costs there were beyond those that readily would come to mind. (paying drivers, buying fuel, getting permits etc.)

rick@todengine.org
Author:  RH [ Wed Sep 18, 2002 4:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: EBT 18 & 29 come home
Well lets see. Loading, crew for loading, drivers, possible escort drivers for wide load, overtime, insurance, truck upkeep, cost of trucks, fuel, driver layovers, tolls, permits, unloading, crew for unloading. Oh and lets not forget profit, these guys need to make money too. I don't know what the margin is for railcar transports by road, but it takes some very specialized equiptment. There are only so many operations that can do this, supply and demand.
Author:  Rick [ Wed Sep 18, 2002 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EBT 18 & 29 come home
> Well lets see. Loading, crew for loading,
> drivers, possible escort drivers for wide
> load, overtime, insurance, truck upkeep,
> cost of trucks, fuel, driver layovers,
> tolls, permits, unloading, crew for
> unloading. Oh and lets not forget profit,
> these guys need to make money too. I don't
> know what the margin is for railcar
> transports by road, but it takes some very
> specialized equiptment. There are only so
> many operations that can do this, supply and
> demand.

OK, now we have the smart alec answer. I have shipped railcars by road before, and have assisted a friend who has a rig similar to Venezia's when he used to move railcars. My point is that I think his price was high, and as an FEBT member I am curious as to where my donated money is going and if it is being spent responsibly.


rick@todengine.org
Author:  Dave [ Wed Sep 18, 2002 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EBT 18 & 29 come home
as an FEBT member I am curious as to
> where my donated money is going and if it is
> being spent responsibly.

Rick, surely they got more than one bid from experienced contractors before accepting that one. Anybody on the inside have any idea how much higher the others may have been?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net
Author:  RH [ Wed Sep 18, 2002 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EBT 18 & 29 come home
> OK, now we have the smart alec answer.

I was not being a smart alec, I was being literal, sorry you can't tell the difference.
Author:  Kelly [ Wed Sep 18, 2002 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EBT 18 & 29 come home
> OK, now we have the smart alec answer. I
> have shipped railcars by road before, and
> have assisted a friend who has a rig similar
> to Venezia's when he used to move railcars.
> My point is that I think his price was high,
> and as an FEBT member I am curious as to
> where my donated money is going and if it is
> being spent responsibly.

That answer didn't sound too smart alec to me, not as much as your original question anyway. To the previous answer, I would add flying a crew from NJ for several days to cocoon, brace and prep the cars to move, renting the tools, and buying the bracing, and cocooning materials. Remember that the cars were ready to collapse where they stood, and there was some question as to whether they would survive being moved across the S&S property to the loading point, much less 1500 miles across country.

I doubt that anyone held a gun to FEBTÂ’s head demanding that they hire Mike, they paid their money, and they made their choice.

The bottom line that should be remembered is that the cars made it home in one piece. They could have hired some fly-by-night outfit, and the people of eastern Colorado would have been picking up free kindling for the next 11 years.



kelly@strasburgrailroad.com
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Sep 18, 2002 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Trucking estimates
> OK, now we have the smart alec answer. I
> have shipped railcars by road before, and
> have assisted a friend who has a rig similar
> to Venezia's when he used to move railcars.
> My point is that I think his price was high,
> and as an FEBT member I am curious as to
> where my donated money is going and if it is
> being spent responsibly.

If you would like a comparision, a group I am loosely affilliated with was quoted about $14-15,000 to haul a streetcar from the West Coast to the East Coast. That was ONE car of about the same general size as the EBT cars, more intact, longer haul, seasoned in rail preservation movements (has hauled PCCs). Thet were supposedly trolling about for any westbound loads to handle to split the driving costs, but all the movements they could find at the time were running eastbound.

Look at it this way--another museum I know paid $1,000 to get two freight cars hauled SEVEN MILES from an isolated shop siding to another semi-isolated track, and that was with a substantial amount of the otherwise-billable expenses DONATED.


lner4472@bcpl.net
Author:  J.R. May [ Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trucking estimates
NJMT worked with Mike Venezia in an attempt to save a PRR 1860s wooden passenger car (Pb) which sat along the beach in NJ. You could not ask for a more honest, knowledgeable contractor for such a move. To me moving the EBT cars was a steal, in part because they were smaller and yes in better shape than the car we tried to move. Extensive research is needed before the car is even touched. The risk is extensive. Fire wood on the side of the high way is frowned upon by the police and is expensive to clean up.

Keep in mind that no two cars are the same. Construction, wood condition, metal condition, height, length, etc all figure in. You don't award these contracts on price. You award on the basis that the item being moved will indeed make it from point A to point B.

There is no one better for the job. You want honest? That would be Mike Venezia. NJMT knows.

Thanks again Mike for your help.

J.R. May
Chairman of the Board
NJMT, Inc./Pine Creek RR

> If you would like a comparision, a group I
> am loosely affilliated with was quoted about
> $14-15,000 to haul a streetcar from the West
> Coast to the East Coast. That was ONE car of
> about the same general size as the EBT cars,
> more intact, longer haul, seasoned in rail
> preservation movements (has hauled PCCs).
> Thet were supposedly trolling about for any
> westbound loads to handle to split the
> driving costs, but all the movements they
> could find at the time were running
> eastbound.

> Look at it this way--another museum I know
> paid $1,000 to get two freight cars hauled
> SEVEN MILES from an isolated shop siding to
> another semi-isolated track, and that was
> with a substantial amount of the
> otherwise-billable expenses DONATED.


http://www.njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org
Author:  K.R. Bell [ Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trucking estimates
> There is no one better for the job. You want
> honest? That would be Mike Venezia. NJMT
> knows.

Yes, I second that, J.R.! Mike Venezia also does our over-the-road equipment moves and is first-rate.

K.R. Bell
Author:  Dave [ Fri Sep 20, 2002 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trucking estimates
If I read Rick correctly, he isn't saying Mike did a bad job, just was wondering about its cost, and would there have been other qualified contractors who could have done the job at lower cost. This is a valid question.

Vance Dickenson and Glenn Guerra come to mind. Andy Dahm for sure, and he is right there in Colorado to begin with.

I think Rick has the right to ask about management practices in an organization he supports which is constantly asking for more support. Please, Friends of EBT, before it begins to appear that your president is Mike's brother in law, share this information and let's get back to work trying to save this national treasure.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net
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