Bilevel Open Air Cars?

bigjim4life · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:43 pm

While posting this photo in another group, someone pointed out the bilevel car directly behind the locomotive. This was at the ill-fated Gettysburg Railroad, in Gettysburg, PA - where they used this car - a converted auto rack car - on their tourist excursions. It has been stated many times here on RYPN that the quality and care of the Gettysburg equipment and rolling stock was thought to be far below acceptable standards. But this is not meant to be a thread about the Gettysburg operation, I digress.

Are there any other examples of a bilevel open air passenger car in operation or preserved in the US? I can understand both the drawbacks and appeals of having such a car in operation on your local tourist line. What would it take to convert or build such a car that would be both safe and smoother riding than what the Gettysburg had? Or is it simply not possible to do?

robertmacdowell · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:50 pm

There were two. The seating capacity was nothing short of unbelievable. From what I recall from the Ozark listing, they had fixed bus seats and their own entry steps that had been improvised somehow.

Those cars still exist, if you really want them.

G. W. Laepple · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1182

At least during my tenure as General Manger of the Gettysburg Railway (after the Gettysburg Railroad went out of business), we had only one double-deck passenger car. I believe there was another, smaller car at the Knox & Kane. After one season, we took the big doubledecker out of service and overhauled its trucks, which greatly improved the ride. The side bearings were just about gone, and the snubbers were completely shot. It was amazing what renewing those parts did for the ride!

baldwin · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:53 pm

I rode the Gettysburg car and tell you the ride was terrible, I thought it was from it being an unloaded freight car. But because it was made from an auto rack it had large windows or openings to see out of and get a nice breeze.
I live on the east coast so I haven't rode in and double decker commuter passenger cars but aren't the window openings small? I think you would have to enlarge the window openings for a tourist rr for the passengers to enjoy the view.

eze240 · **Joined:** Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:29 am **Posts:** 319

Several guys I know have described them as "rolling death traps"....perhaps they are unstable?

philip.marshall · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:59 pm

I've found the C3 bilevel commuter coaches on the Long Island to be remarkably smooth-riding, but perhaps they're the exception in this regard.

-Philip Marshall

Al Stangenberger · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm **Posts:** 650

The McCloud River had some homemade bi-levels. Not sure if any survive.

Dougvv · **Joined:** Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm **Posts:** 914

Hi,

I have ridden in several ex-D&RGW narrow gauge cars over the years. It is amazing what leaf springs do for the ride over coil springs.

Doug vV

David Johnston · **Posted:** Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:53 pm

Several years ago a Southern Railway (maybe NS) steam powered excursion train derailed. The NTSB investigated and, I believe, found the primary cause to be a sun kink. They had many additional comments, some on the type of equipment used on excursion trains. As I recall they had a very low opinion of cars with open sides and loose seating and tables. Their concern was the consequences if there was a roll over type derailment with this type equipment, even at slow speeds. If there is a proposal to use an old auto rack in excursion service it might be worth while to find and read this NTSB accident report. After this report was issued, the origanization I was affiliated with at the time discontinued all plans to use converted open freight cars in passenger service.

Dougvv · **Joined:** Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm **Posts:** 914

Hi,

Quote:

Several years ago a Southern Railway (maybe NS) steam powered excursion train derailed

That was the Great Dismal Swamp wreck/derailment in (I think) the early 1980s. It was Southern Railway and Graham Claytor (I think) was at the throttle and traveling over the track's speed limit. It was after that that all open riding cars were taken off excursion trains. Also, the speed limit for all steam excursions on Southern was not to exceed 35 MPH (IIRC). I was living in Texas at the time. When I got back to Atlanta, GA (mid-1983), I was shocked at the changes in the Steam Program.

I think one car or two cars ended up on its side. Those cars with tight lock couplers remained upright (IIRC).

FWIW.

Doug vV

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:02 am

That derailment was caused by track misalignment at a switch, which was due to a combination of improper repair work and heating, and it was pretty serious.

Quote:

On Sunday, May 18, 1986, 611 was at the head of an Norfolk Southern employee appreciation train from Norfolk, Virginia, with Robert Claytor at the throttle. One of the passenger cars failed to negotiat a switch on the main line through the Great Dismal Swamp, causing it and 12 other cars of the 23 car train to derail. Many of the nearly 1000 employees and their family members were injured; some of the more seriously injured had to be airlifted to hospitals in nearby Norfolk for treatment.[5]

The derailment prevented the use of the main line for freight traffic for some time. This derailment brought a wave of change to the program, including the retirement of many of the older passenger cars. Despite rumors, the program continued, welcoming another locomotive, former Norfolk & Western 1218, a simple articulated 2-6-6-4. The two continued to pull the systems' trains, with 611 even participating in a triple-header with N&W 1218 and Southern Railway 4501, until 1994. In September of that year there was a switching accident in Lynchburg, VA, involving the passenger cars of an excursion consist that 611 was to pull the next day. This damaged several cars, causing a shortage and the consequent need for more cars. A month later, NS executives terminated the steam program due to rising insurance costs, increasing cost of maintenance, and low spare system capacity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%26W_J_class_(1941)

The National Transportation Safety Board report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acci ... AR8705.pdf

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:12 am

Some earlier threads on the subject that came up in the search; it's likely there are others:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18684

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1326&start=0

http://rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29040

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25817

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:43 am

Dougvv wrote:

Also, the speed limit for all steam excursions on Southern was not to exceed 35 MPH (IIRC).

You don't recall correctly. The limit was 40 MPH, as per the NS rulebook and employee TTs after the accident.

And the only two cars that toppled were the only two without tightlocks.

Randy Gustafson · **Posted:** Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:37 am

I rode on that auto rack, top level, post-Cornell era, down at Gettysburg.

It really was that bad. It rocked so hard I slid off the bus seat into the aisle, and you could hear the side bearings banging into the truck sideframes. Any harder, and it would have lifted a wheeltread off the rails. I was the only one on the car that afternoon and I ended up retreating back into a conventional car. I've had some pretty rough rides but that was the record worst. I'm pretty sure this would have been 'before' Wayne fixed the side bearings (see above post) because I sure let them know about the experience.

I also have a memorable shot of fresh bird nests up under the roof edge.

I think there's a pretty good reason why that was never done again. The second rack car ended up on the Knox & Kane, parked on a passing siding along Rt. 66, and I'm pretty sure it was either auctioned off or cut up for scrap. I think it was also used in the early years and given up on, as K&K track was a lot rougher than Gettysburg.

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

Pretty sure this isn't what you were thinking of, but the Rocky Mountaineer has bilevel cars with open air sections. They're more of a really big back platform than a true open car, but it is open. Not just the back car features one, all of the bilevels offer them from what I've seen, though they could have some that don't.