My NKP ?dream? below got me thinking? has any US museum preserved and interpreted any USRA artifacts as such?

Hear me out, but I have an even more realistic dream than the one for #587. In 15 years we will be marking the beginning of WW1. There will be all sorts of military history displays across the country. The WWI collectors are as ravenous and dedicated as we are.

I am wondering about planting the seeds for a long-term cosmetic restoration to properly stuff and mount one of the USRA engines that are still with us.

My suggestion? Get one of the Frisco gals that are park-bound and have a real ?USA? Russian decapod.

Of course, getting the first built-for-USRA Mike down in Baltimore ensconced indoors would be nice.

This is one of those ideas where fundraising could cross out of the traditional bounds and into other areas like military groups and foundations.

It might be a really nice way to get an ?outdoor? engine inside while honoring the role railroaders played in WWI.

What do you think?

Rob Davis


Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

> In 15 years we will be marking the beginning of
> WW1.

Today's nitpick: "The Great War" commenced in 1914. 1917 was only the USA's entry into the war.

As to the idea of a USRA loco, I think a 2-8-2 would be much more representative - is NKP 624 a USRA engine, and would the gentleman seeking to acquire it be interested in the project?

JAC
board pedant

JAC,

Your nit picked my mistake. Thank you. (A big DUH! to me).

#624 is a copy (Lima 1922 me thinks). #587 is a 1918 Baldwin and fits the bill.

Rob

> Today's nitpick: "The Great War"
> commenced in 1914. 1917 was only the USA's
> entry into the war.

> As to the idea of a USRA loco, I think a
> 2-8-2 would be much more representative - is
> NKP 624 a USRA engine, and would the
> gentleman seeking to acquire it be
> interested in the project?

> JAC
> board pedant


Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

Duh to you both. Here's an idea: An example of every USRA model. IRM probably has them all somewhere on the property already. We restore them all and then collect every Merci boxcar in the country and run a national tour.

Removing tongue from cheek, why not plan a railroad tour as a national remeberance of the role played by the railroads in WW I? Artrain and PO train worked very well. If we did have more than one USRA model available, the tour could be hauled by a pleasing variety of power.

Is this pie in the sky or worth seriously considering?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Is this pie in the sky or worth seriously
> considering?

Well, you've got one operating USRA Mike in #587 and one in the shop in #4070 and then there's the operating Decapod in Union, IL.

That's three potential USRA veterans right there!

Rob


trains@robertjohndavis.com

> Well, you've got one operating USRA Mike in
> #587 and one in the shop in #4070 and then
> there's the operating Decapod in Union, IL.

> That's three potential USRA veterans right
> there!

> Rob

Rob: Although the "Russian Decapods" were diverted to U.S. railways during World War 1 and were operated by the USRA, they were NOT USRA designed locomotives. PLUS, if you think that running a steam locomotive on common carriers is tough these days, try getting ANY railroad to run a Russian Decapod with its wide tires (Kevin McCabe or someone else from IRyM will probably give you an earfull on the problems of even getting the 1630 moved to the museum!)

As for the other idea; I think it is terrific! In addition to the two Mikes mentioned, there are also two genuine USRA Frisco 2-8-2's (4003 and 4018) along with B&O's #4500 (the first USRA engine.) I believe that Missabe 2-10-2 #502 is also a genuine USRA engine. There may be more.

midlandblb@cs.com

L,

I didn't meant to imply the Russians were USRA-designed, but they were called to service by the USRA and as such are more than worthy of inclusion in any historical display concerning the USRA.

Heck, wouldn't it have been cool to see them with all their Russian appliances strutting around old Mauch Chunk?

Misssbe #506 2-10-2 in Green Bay, is a USRA engine. The #502 in St. Louis is older.

We missed her on our list on RYPN a few weeks back, so...

Now it looks like:

2-10-0

There are 6 surviving "Russian" Decapods that served the USRA. Other non-USRA engines are in Russia.

2-8-2

6 Light Mikes are left. Of the light Mikados, the very first one (and first USRA loco overall), B&O #4500 is in Baltimore. Then there are Frisco #4003 (Fort Smith, AR) and #4018 (Birmingham, AL). Both are PRR rejects. Union Pacific #2537 is in Jefferson Park Walla Walla, WA. Indiana's Lake Erie & Western #5541/ Nickel Plate No. 587 is a USRA loco. And GTW #3734 (now #4070)

4-6-2
ACL #1504 remains near a convention center in Jacksonville, Florida.

Add the 2-10-2 to the list and that gives us 13 engines with USRA service and 7 of USRA design.

Rob

> Rob: Although the "Russian
> Decapods" were diverted to U.S.
> railways during World War 1 and were
> operated by the USRA, they were NOT USRA
> designed locomotives. PLUS, if you think
> that running a steam locomotive on common
> carriers is tough these days, try getting
> ANY railroad to run a Russian Decapod with
> its wide tires (Kevin McCabe or someone else
> from IRyM will probably give you an earfull
> on the problems of even getting the 1630
> moved to the museum!)

> As for the other idea; I think it is
> terrific! In addition to the two Mikes
> mentioned, there are also two genuine USRA
> Frisco 2-8-2's (4003 and 4018) along with
> B&O's #4500 (the first USRA engine.) I
> believe that Missabe 2-10-2 #502 is also a
> genuine USRA engine. There may be more.


trains@robertjohndavis.com

> L,

> I didn't meant to imply the Russians were
> USRA-designed, but they were called to
> service by the USRA and as such are more
> than worthy of inclusion in any historical
> display concerning the USRA.

> Heck, wouldn't it have been cool to see them
> with all their Russian appliances strutting
> around old Mauch Chunk?

> Misssbe #506 2-10-2 in Green Bay, is a USRA
> engine. The #502 in St. Louis is older.

> We missed her on our list on RYPN a few
> weeks back, so...

> Now it looks like:

> 2-10-0

> There are 6 surviving "Russian"
> Decapods that served the USRA. Other
> non-USRA engines are in Russia.

> 2-8-2

> 6 Light Mikes are left. Of the light
> Mikados, the very first one (and first USRA
> loco overall), B&O #4500 is in
> Baltimore. Then there are Frisco #4003 (Fort
> Smith, AR) and #4018 (Birmingham, AL). Both
> are PRR rejects. Union Pacific #2537 is in
> Jefferson Park Walla Walla, WA. Indiana's
> Lake Erie & Western #5541/ Nickel Plate
> No. 587 is a USRA loco. And GTW #3734 (now
> #4070)

> 4-6-2
> ACL #1504 remains near a convention center
> in Jacksonville, Florida.

> Add the 2-10-2 to the list and that gives us
> 13 engines with USRA service and 7 of USRA
> design.

> Rob

Rob: My mistake on the Missabe 2-10-2's. Thanks for the correction. I like your idea of a "re-Russianized" Decapod. I just don't think there is a chance in the world to run one over the common carrier rail system. It would be hard enough to get the railroads to agree to handling one of the USRA design engines BUT at least these engines don't have wide tires on their drivers. One of the USRA engines with U.S. on her tender and restored to her original appearance would look great, along with a genuine World War 1 era train to pull. Could it be done? Doubtful. But at least there is enough time to try!

midlandblb@cs.com

> L,

> I didn't meant to imply the Russians were
> USRA-designed, but they were called to
> service by the USRA and as such are more
> than worthy of inclusion in any historical
> display concerning the USRA.

> Heck, wouldn't it have been cool to see them
> with all their Russian appliances strutting
> around old Mauch Chunk?

> Misssbe #506 2-10-2 in Green Bay, is a USRA
> engine. The #502 in St. Louis is older.

> We missed her on our list on RYPN a few
> weeks back, so...

> Now it looks like:

> 2-10-0

> There are 6 surviving "Russian"
> Decapods that served the USRA. Other
> non-USRA engines are in Russia.

> 2-8-2

> 6 Light Mikes are left. Of the light
> Mikados, the very first one (and first USRA
> loco overall), B&O #4500 is in
> Baltimore. Then there are Frisco #4003 (Fort
> Smith, AR) and #4018 (Birmingham, AL). Both
> are PRR rejects. Union Pacific #2537 is in
> Jefferson Park Walla Walla, WA. Indiana's
> Lake Erie & Western #5541/ Nickel Plate
> No. 587 is a USRA loco. And GTW #3734 (now
> #4070)

> 4-6-2
> ACL #1504 remains near a convention center
> in Jacksonville, Florida.

> Add the 2-10-2 to the list and that gives us
> 13 engines with USRA service and 7 of USRA
> design.

> Rob

Rob: One other thing; I count 14 engines with USRA service with 8 of USRA design.

Les


midlandblb@cs.com

One question I would raise. Were any of them retired without substantial modernization. The USRA locos were built without Delta trailing trucks or feedwater heaters, but I believe that one, the other, or both were genrerally applied before retirement. Are any remaining with the original built up trucks?

Second question. Why not admit copies an or similar locomotives along with a discussion of where the USRA types came from, (not out of a vacum, of course,) and what their influence was? Then museums like MOT or IRM can put examples of nearly all types at least close together. Thus either of the Ys could stand in for a USRA 2-8-8-2, though both, and particulalrly the Y6a are much more modern. The surviving C&O 2-6-6-2 would be similar to the USRA design, yes? 1522 and a handfull of Frisco mountains are at least related to the USRA design, though not technicaly copies. (They look to be essentially enlarged light mountains. They retain basically the same boiler proportions of the lights, but stretched slightly, and at least look visualy much the same.) 502 could also stand in for the light 2-10-2, as the USRA design was in part based on the DM&N design, yes? And the numerous copies of Pacifics, Mikes, and six and eight coupled switchers could show what influence the USRA designs had, which was enormous, to say the least. Mind you, I would not tend to prefer "back dating" the locomotives myself, just discussing their influence on or by the USRA designs. It is an interesting tie in, in any case.

Sincerely,
David Ackerman

david_ackerman@yahoo.com

In a somewhat nebulous two part answer older engines especially USRA ones went through scads of changes and improvements of which all varried from road to road , locomotive to locomotive, time period to time period. In the case of Erie's (true and only) USRA Heavy Pacifics the final outcome was engines that bore little resemblence to the original as delivered machines. Most of them had the boilers stripped and lifted off and the engine portion completely replaced. The combinations and variations of alterations and accesories is almost endless. When discussed in books and technical documentation from the railroad it goes as a general guidline. Only a very few, if any at all, USRA Locomotives made it through without any alterations or improvements, that also applies to any locomotives , USRA or not.

I've always wondered what exact benchmark determined a locomotive as a USRA "copy" . To me ,copy means a duplicate. But alot of so called "Copies" don't match any dimensions exactly. The only matching generality is the basic boiler taper "look". Honestly , IMHO , I think a lot of us have been led to believe that these engines are copies by people who write books and only look at the basic shape of the boiler and overall weight. And when real dimensions are compaired the are not the same.

Example : Again using Erie USRA PAcifics. It is suggested that Southern Ps-4's are USRA copies though NOTHING as far as dimensions match, other than the basic boiler taper porportions. The same goes for NKP 587 vs. 624 where there is a big difference between the two even though the basic shape is the same. Mainly beining that the 624 has slightly larger pistons and slightly larger boiler to supply steam to those pistons though only different by inches. The whole point of USRA engine were universiality,were all components were the same and stock items for repairs universal from one railroad to the next. And in the USRA plan locomotive could be moved and used anywhere without the need for specialized parts or engineering.

Rich Young

> (snip)
> I've always wondered what exact benchmark
> determined a locomotive as a USRA
> "copy" . To me ,copy means a
> duplicate. But alot of so called
> "Copies" don't match any
> dimensions exactly. The only matching
> generality is the basic boiler taper
> "look". Honestly , IMHO , I think
> a lot of us have been led to believe that
> these engines are copies by people who write
> books and only look at the basic shape of
> the boiler and overall weight. And when real
> dimensions are compaired the are not the
> same.

Good points.

I had thought, for instance, that the N&W Y3 (at least as built) was very close to the USRA 2-8-8-2, but I don't have any detailed data to compare them with. Any comments?

And I'll be sure to ask Tom if he could have it running 15 years from now. Of course, I'll be standing at a safe distance....

> My NKP ?dream? below got me thinking? has
> any US museum preserved and interpreted any
> USRA artifacts as such?

> Hear me out, but I have an even more
> realistic dream than the one for #587. In 15
> years we will be marking the beginning of
> WW1. There will be all sorts of military
> history displays across the country. The WWI
> collectors are as ravenous and dedicated as
> we are.

> I am wondering about planting the seeds for
> a long-term cosmetic restoration to properly
> stuff and mount one of the USRA engines that
> are still with us.

> My suggestion? Get one of the Frisco gals
> that are park-bound and have a real ?USA?
> Russian decapod.

> Of course, getting the first built-for-USRA
> Mike down in Baltimore ensconced indoors
> would be nice.

> This is one of those ideas where fundraising
> could cross out of the traditional bounds
> and into other areas like military groups
> and foundations.

> It might be a really nice way to get an
> ?outdoor? engine inside while honoring the
> role railroaders played in WWI.

> What do you think?

> Rob Davis

Rob: I've been giving this idea of yours a little thought. I like the idea of interpreting a surviving USRA engine to look as she did "as-built." But I also think that the best bet (and one where you could draw the best support from foundations and the like) is to recreate a World War 1 era train or trains. I agree that the best scenario would be one of the locomotives that served the USRA during this period restored to active duty. But remember, ALL the locomotives that were active at that time served the USRA because the railroads were under federal control. Now I agree that the USRA designed locomotives would make the best sense mainly because they carried that large U.S. on their tenders. The problem is that many of them were not delivered until AFTER the Armistice was signed on November 11, 1918 (the USRA continued to operate the railroads after the war ended until March of 1920.) Of the original surviving USRA designed locomotives on your list, only two of the Mikes were built prior to the cessation of hostilities; B&O #4500 (of course) in July of 1918 and NYC&StL #587 (LE&W #5541) in September. It is POSSIBLE that Union Pacific #2537 may also have been built before 11/11/18 as J. David Conrad's book only shows a built date of 1918. So one of these two (or three) Mikado's would be the most logical choise to haul such a World War 1 commemoration train. Of course, the proper WW1 era equipment would also have to be found and restored as necessary.

Interestingly, the "Russian Decapods" actuallly served the USRA longer being transferred to active duty in March, April and May of 1918, as the builders regauged them for service over the USA's 4' 8-1/2" trackage. One of these would certainly be an appropriate substitute for the 2-8-2's mentioned above. Except of course, for the problem with the wide tires as mentioned previously. While you and I would probably agree that this is all a "wild pipe dream", a "russianized" Russian Decapod is not out of the question as a static display. My wish would be that a museum would have one of both. The "russianized" example along with an example of what they were turned into. Or how about this; let's get one of the U.S. built 2-10-0's that made it to Russia BACK to the U.S.A. (IF any still exist) to be displayed next to one of the Frisco, or the SAL, examples. Now that WOULD be a display! Any current Russian Decpaod owners want to take up the challenge?

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum)

midlandblb@cs.com

Another interesting and oft overlooked aspect of WWI railroading, (notive I don't say WWI era,) is the number of locomotives built for use in Europe. I've read a bit in European books on the various
2-8-0 consolidations built for that purpose, (Pershing consolidations, if memory serves, yes?) I wish to say that one of the rail museums in the "Old Northwest" has one, alongside the L&NER A4 "Dwight D. Eisenhower" and that it is currently interpreted in WWI huise, anlong with a substantial train of WWI equipment. This will be a tremendous asset when the time comes. Are any of the Pershings still opperating in Europe? I believe the French opperate one of the USRAesque extra-light mikes we built for them during and after WWII. It would be interesting to coroborate with our old allies to assemble a good display. Or at least a good book. (As locomotives are somewhat more difficult to ship and insure than paintings.)

Sincerely,
David Ackerman

david_ackerman@yahoo.com

David,

You beat me to the punch. I have also been thinking about the Pershing consolidations, which were built for export to Europe during WWI.

There are two know survivors. One is #101 (Baldwin 48714/1918) at the National RR Museum, Green Bay, WI. It remained in the States after WWI, and was then sent to Korea along with some S-160s and other locomotives during the Korean war.

The Government of Korea sent her back when hostilities cooled down. So she is really a vertern of two wars.

The other is now Texas State Railroad #300; ex Southern Pine Lumber #645. She received a new boiler a few years ago, and is now active on the Texas State Railroad.

I don't know how close to their original appears either one of these are; but they are logical choices for a WWI memorial train of sorts.

There are quite a few Russian Decapods remaining in Russia; the question is which ones are from the original batch built during WWI, and which ones came from the group built during WWII.

* YeS-350 at the Palace of the culture of the railroad workers, Chelyabinsk is supposively built by ALCO in 1915. However, it is already in preservation.

* YeM-629, which is E of station, Ussuriysk, Primorskiy Territory is Baldwin 10129/1917 is another Russian Decapod. However, besides being preserved, it is famous because Russian war hero Sergei Lazo was burned alive in it's firebox by the invading Japanese army, so they won't want to part with it.

* Ye1-266 at the outdoor museum, Dund Gol station, Ulan Bator was already mentioned before, built in 1917.

I think the one that should be rescued is now numbered as DK2 114 and is still dumped at Baotou Steelworks & Depot. According to Colin Garratt, it was built by ALCO in 1917. I recieved Steve's pictures today (thank you very, very much) and it is definitely in rough shape. But it also been reguaged already by the Chinese; and it's story after WWI is interesting as well.

Otherwise, one of the WWII built examples would also work. It had a slightly different profile, and some dimensions may be a little different. But any signage could explain that it was built for Lend-Lease during WWII, but resembles locomotives built during WWI.

Some of these got sent to North Korea; and if relations ever thaw to that point, I bet they would love to have cash or food in exchange for one or more of them.

Finally, don't forget also the 2-6-2T locomotives built for the US and British Army by Davenport and ALCO, and the 10-12-D 4-6-0T locomotives built by Baldwin for the British Army. They are all either 2ft or 600mm in guage, and a few remaining survivors exist in preservation around the world. Two of the 4-6-0T engines was still at work at least until recently at BSSC Motipur Sugar Mill, Motipur, N. India; these engines were also photographed by Colin Garratt.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Another interesting and oft overlooked
> aspect of WWI railroading, (notive I don't
> say WWI era,) is the number of locomotives
> built for use in Europe. I've read a bit in
> European books on the various
> 2-8-0 consolidations built for that purpose,
> (Pershing consolidations, if memory serves,
> yes?) I wish to say that one of the rail
> museums in the "Old Northwest" has
> one, alongside the L&NER A4 "Dwight
> D. Eisenhower" and that it is currently
> interpreted in WWI huise, anlong with a
> substantial train of WWI equipment. This
> will be a tremendous asset when the time
> comes. Are any of the Pershings still
> opperating in Europe? I believe the French
> opperate one of the USRAesque extra-light
> mikes we built for them during and after
> WWII. It would be interesting to coroborate
> with our old allies to assemble a good
> display. Or at least a good book. (As
> locomotives are somewhat more difficult to
> ship and insure than paintings.)

> Sincerely,
> David Ackerman


Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net