This picture from 1908 sparked some conversation on another board. What is the device on the side of the copula? Is this some sort of lantern?

It's a housing to house a lantern, likely for use as a marker lamp. Very likely one on the other side, possibly diagonally opposite. The little vent on top lines up with the lamp chimney, and likely there are colored glass slides that can be manipulated from inside to change the colors, so no one has to go out to turn the markers when they clear the main.

Hmmm, 1908 and no air brake line on the caboose?

Not required by then?

There doesn't appear to be an air line on the car coupled next to it, either.

Based on a little bit of searching, it looks like air brakes, along with Janney couplers (which this equipment does have), were mandatory by 1898.

Maybe the photo actually dates sometime prior to 1908.

I would say mustouches are solidly in vogue........

You're right, and looking at the photo some more, other things stand out.

One is clothes styles--plenty of striped shirts, everyone has a hat (except for two guys with caps and badges), and high laced boots are very much in evidence, too.

A lot of those clothes look to be worse for wear, too. I can imagine my wife saying she wouldn't want me going to work in something that looked like that!

It's hard to see, but way over at the right, we can see part of one of the trucks under the caboose. It's a passenger type, likely a short wheelbase version for cars like this.

It's also a lot of people for one shot. This isn't just a train crew, it's some sort of yard staff, perhaps.

And while I know group shots like this were popular (among other things, it gave the photographer more potential customers for his prints), what was the occasion of getting so many people together for such a picture?

One person pointed out on another board that at the time only 85% of the cars had to be under the control of the Engineer. If that were true why spend money on air brakes for the caboose?

Could it also be that this was a work train and a work crew? Old equipment and shabby clothes.

There are very similar markers to be found on the NKP 1000-series cabooses which date from that era, as well. Not trying to hijack the thread, but there were used there as well. The NKP wood NKP 1047 displayed at the Mad River and NKP Museum's Monument building has a pair them, one on each side of the cupola. In the attached photo from the MR&NKP web site pne is visible, on the cupola side, to the right of the right side flag, hung on the end of the car. The lanterns were, indeed, lit by kerosene lanterns. They also have one marker, on display, for closer examination. Don't know how long they lasted. I have a photo of NKP 1000, taken in 1960, which shows them present, after what appears to be a fresh repaint. A number of Howard Ameling's photos, in the NKPHTS archives show those marker lanterns into the 60's.

I'll second (or third) the marker lamp as equipment description, however I disagree with Dennis S. about lenses and a second unit on the other side. The lens looks fairly dark in the photo, so I'd guess it was a solid red lens and not readily changeable. Anyone have a period LS&MS rule-book handy to tell if they changed colors for running/cleared? Hard to tell, but it looks to me like the cupola is hard against the other side of the car as there's no railing (or probably foot-boards) on the other side of the cupola. I've seen many more drawings and pics of permanent markers on top of cupolas than sides, so this one is really interesting. Would be great if car57 were to replace one on one of his UP cars.

Anyone know if LS&MS had drover's cabeese or if they used cars like this specifically for work trains? The number of windows and the large number of people suggests to me a drover's or work car and a separate crew posing with the train crew. The 6 guys seated in the middle and the seated guy on the right look like operating people and the standing + seated guy on the left and one-knee on the right look like stock yard or laborer types. Seated guys without jackets/overalls probably the local agent and operator/clerk. The car coupled to the caboose looks like a flat with stake and board sides so could go either way, but if I had to tip in one direction, the high speed passenger style trucks on the caboose would point to a drover's.

Either way that's a great car. Wish I had one laying around somewhere.

I'm inclined to think the cupola is a narrow one, centered as would normally be the case, but the handrail and running board are not visible because of the viewing angle.

Found this drawing of what is likely a later car, and it has footboards around both sides of its cupola:

http://www.nymtmuseum.org/special_event ... aboose.jpg

I won't positively say that the NYC-LSMS didn't have drovers' cars, and you could be right about some of the people in the shot being cattle people, but the number of windows isn't excessive when you look at other NYC caboose shots, and the passenger style trucks weren't uncommon either, again based on photos I've seen.

In fact, there is a photo in one of the late Al Staufer's books on NYC power that has a picture of a similar looking car, but in a light colored paint scheme, and it's lettered as being a dynamometer car!

As to wishing one was still around--don't we all wish more of EVERYTHING was still around?

Heck, think of how many of us believe, at least in regard to railroads, that we just plain live in the wrong time!

Brain cells being tickled a bit here. . .A long time ago, I recall reading "Daniel Willard Rides the Line," by Edward Hungerford. This was a biography of the famous B&O president, written when he was still alive, and it includes what were apparently interviews with him.

One that I recall was that he was an engineer on the LS&MS for a time. This was in the 19th century, before hours of service laws and a lot of other things, and he recalled how at least some trains on the Lake Shore apparently ran at low enough speed to run essentially visually. He said the cabooses had FIVE marker lights--two on each side (possibly the two on the cupola among them, and the fifth on top), and he knew, if the five lights appeared as one, he was at a safe following distance, but if he could see them break up and become individually distinguishable, he was closer than he should have been, and needed to back off.

As I mentioned, this was before hours of service laws, Willard was tired as so many railroaders were then, and he would doze off, see the lights, back off--and the inevitable happened. He commented something to the effect that the lights and the rear end of the caboose seemed right in front of him. I forget whether the Willard said the road had air by that time, but I do recall he said the collision was at a low enough speed that the only damage was a caved-in wooden pilot on his engine.

This was all recalled by Willard when he would have been around 80 years old, but it's very possible it was pretty clear in his mind; I don't think you would forget such an experience very easily!

Not that it matters; but, the car side seems to read "Lake Shore and Michigan Southern."

Brian -

I agree; a LS&MS caboose. What has me curious are the square indentations over each of the windows. Their use? Also, do I see a car number over the door? If so, can anyone make out the number?

Fascinating photo!


Les

Yes Brian - it is definitely a LS&MS caboose.

I had never paid much attention to pre-NYC LS&MS equipment, but it appears this was an early 8 wheel class of theirs. There is another photo of one in Staufer's Early Power on page 202 -with link and pins coupled to a not-too-old '69 built Mason 4-4-0 - no date listed but it looks like late 70s/early 80s. That one has very simple early style steps (2 steps vs. 3 and no kick boards), the passenger style wood trucks and lettering is shadowed "L.S. & M.S." above the windows, number is C39. Also clearly visible is the railing on the other side of the cupola and a small additional protrusion from the cupola roof, so Dennis S. is more than likely right about the second large lamp. I didn't look close enough at the OP pic but you can just make out the railing above the roof walk on the B end. The small protrusion is much too small to have a lamp with a larger lens like the (probably) 8-3/8" on the cupola side markers, but who knows? J3a's story about the 5 lamps is plausible as there are also standard brackets on the body corners. An even earlier rule/signal book might be needed.

The dyno car on page 284 could be a converted classmate, or maybe Big Four purchased hacks from the same manufacturer of the same basic design and customized/converted their own to suit. It looks to be maybe 20-25 years later than the page 202 pic (early 90s loco with automatic couplers and air brakes) with completely different steps, full width and completely different cupola, wider letter-board, minus a window and ladders and on a different RR, but it has the same trucks and window-cupola-stack spacing, plus a larger lamp projecting from the cupola top.

Les - looks kind of like C185 above the door to me but very faint, and that doesn't fit with LS&MS C154 in the NYCHS photos - a very different animal - maybe OP car is C135. The openings above the windows look like vents, which was another reason I thought it might be a drover's car. They are also on the C39 in the '70s pic, so looks like original equipment for the class. More info here on LSMS cabeese -
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2014 ... ssics2.pdf
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2014 ... ssics3.pdf
Seems like LSMS really liked windows and that style side mounted markers. I have to take exception to the date on the bobber photo - might be a typo - as the numbers are clearly painted on with stencils/sprayed paint, siding nails are weathered, marker light body has lots of dents, steps and stack are newer design, and why would you build a bobber of 1870's design in 1898? Looks like maybe it was rebuilt in '98 or built in '68.

Other question is what's the device just ahead of the cupola on the A end? It looks to also be present on the 70s pic of C39 - way too early to be any kind of radio device in either photo.

Def a LS&MS caboose. The exterior lens is clear with colored glass pieces that slide in and out of holders. Those were changed as the train covered its run. For example, upon taking siding, the marker insert closest to the main track was changed from red to yellow. Other roads with two or three adjustable markers included NKP and NYNY&H.
The 5 marker concept included the conductor & flagman hanging their burning red lanterns on the exterior rear wall or platform of the caboose.