How much has the locomotive "General" been modified since the Un-civil War?
I know that John White did not use it as an example in his book on early American loco's, so it must have been heavily modified ? What changes from as built are known?
M.Nix


2rivers@upstel.com

General as now entombed in a former cotton gin in Kennesaw GA was built by L&N in 1960-61 recycling a bunch of old parts in the process.

As Sherman approached Atlanta on his march to the sea, She was (in original form) standing at the head of an ammunition train which was stuck in town. To keep these vitalsupplies from falling into Shermans hands, the entire train was blown up, along with a lot of the railroad yards.

The rusting remains of what had been General were rebuilt in much altered form afterwards. The outside rail of the frame was gone, as was the front steam dome. She was in all apprearances and for all practical purposes an 1870's locomotive after the rebuild. At some point she was converted to burn coal as well. She worked well into the 1890's, with the usual occasional upgradings, and was found by an early historian sitting in a dead line on a siding awaiting scrapping. Although not a lot like her Andrews Raid self by then, she was preserved by the L&N as a station monument until her rebuilding for operation over parts of the system in the early 1960's.

After an interesting fight between Kentucky and Georgia (led by Joe Mack Wilson, later mayor of Marietta who spearheaded the Glover locomotive restoration and preservation effort) she came to rest where she sits today. L&N replaced a great deal of her 1890's fabric to make her run and added some interesting items as well, like injector and air and oil firing.

It was my privelege to have worked on the Glover project and known the late Mayor Wilson and to have been involved in an attempt to get General out for another series of trips under previous musuem management. An opportunity had arisen due to the addition of the Glover material to the Kennesaw site to build a new museum - now in the process - about steam loocmotives in the South. Unfortunately, these plans didn't bear fruit and were dropped when the previous museum management left for Jekyll Island.

So there are some unanswered questions in my mind here - how much was salvaged after the explosion beyond the nameplate, how much may have been from other hulks or new material used in the reconstruction era rebuild, and what else may have been changed in the remainder of her working career. The L&N modern alterations are pretty evident if you crawl all over and look carefully.

Perhaps someday the new museum management will do a real intensive study.

Dave


irondave@bellsouth.net

Thanks Dave,
In the early Sixties the stories about the last rebuild made it sound like all they had to do was paint, polish, add an injector and they had an operating Civil War loco! I remember comments about what good "original" shape she was in. After reading White's book I got suspicious.
Mike Nix



2rivers@upstel.com

Which further raises the question, why was she dropped from operational service as a guest locomotive? Was the boiler no good? Was L&N tired of supporting her? Was the fact that the Civil War Centennial was over have something to do with it? I saw her at the 1964 World's Fair, in Flushing, Queens. According to Ron Ziel's book, "Twilight of Steam Locomotives" she still bore a Civil War shell hole in her stack. I'd like to see some photos of her prior to the 1960 restoration if any exist.

glueck@maine.edu

When the Fresh Prince signed on for a few mil to star in the "Wild, Wild West" the B&O Museum got enough money to investigate AND restore the William Mason ("DJ Jazzy Bill?")

The lessons learned opened eyes for even the most educated B&O fans. It has long been known the tender was a replacement, but little had been documented about the engine's true identity as B&O #25. The movie work revealed that the locomotive not only sports a lot of her 1850's parts, she also gave up paint secrets long hidden under previous promotional and film dress.

So, can we get a "Huh! Huh! Huh!" for the General and see what a few Benjamins can do for the ultimate old school American?

Peace out,

Rob

> General as now entombed in a former cotton
> gin in Kennesaw GA was built by L&N in
> 1960-61 recycling a bunch of old parts in
> the process.

> As Sherman approached Atlanta on his march
> to the sea, She was (in original form)
> standing at the head of an ammunition train
> which was stuck in town. To keep these
> vitalsupplies from falling into Shermans
> hands, the entire train was blown up, along
> with a lot of the railroad yards.

> The rusting remains of what had been General
> were rebuilt in much altered form
> afterwards. The outside rail of the frame
> was gone, as was the front steam dome. She
> was in all apprearances and for all
> practical purposes an 1870's locomotive
> after the rebuild. At some point she was
> converted to burn coal as well. She worked
> well into the 1890's, with the usual
> occasional upgradings, and was found by an
> early historian sitting in a dead line on a
> siding awaiting scrapping. Although not a
> lot like her Andrews Raid self by then, she
> was preserved by the L&N as a station
> monument until her rebuilding for operation
> over parts of the system in the early
> 1960's.

> After an interesting fight between Kentucky
> and Georgia (led by Joe Mack Wilson, later
> mayor of Marietta who spearheaded the Glover
> locomotive restoration and preservation
> effort) she came to rest where she sits
> today. L&N replaced a great deal of her
> 1890's fabric to make her run and added some
> interesting items as well, like injector and
> air and oil firing.

> It was my privelege to have worked on the
> Glover project and known the late Mayor
> Wilson and to have been involved in an
> attempt to get General out for another
> series of trips under previous musuem
> management. An opportunity had arisen due to
> the addition of the Glover material to the
> Kennesaw site to build a new museum - now in
> the process - about steam loocmotives in the
> South. Unfortunately, these plans didn't
> bear fruit and were dropped when the
> previous museum management left for Jekyll
> Island.

> So there are some unanswered questions in my
> mind here - how much was salvaged after the
> explosion beyond the nameplate, how much may
> have been from other hulks or new material
> used in the reconstruction era rebuild, and
> what else may have been changed in the
> remainder of her working career. The L&N
> modern alterations are pretty evident if you
> crawl all over and look carefully.

> Perhaps someday the new museum management
> will do a real intensive study.

> Dave


Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

TEXAS has not been altered in living memory and resides intact in a basement in Atlanta. A comparison between the two would prove enlightening.

YONAH is long gone to scrap. Nobody has much about the Rome RR train to contribute. Rumors persist the boiler of the William R Smith survives intact in Birmingham. Anybody seen it?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Actually, the General was only shopped for major repairs in the 1960's, after which the custody battle between the City of Chattanooga, Tennessee and the State of Georgia occurred. An article by Zeke Lake appearing in the July 26, 1942 edition of the Chattanooga Times included an interview with a Mr. Obed C. Hancock, a locomotive inspector and machinist who retired in 1938 from the Cincinatti, New Orleans and Texas Pacific Railway but had previously been employed in the same capacities by the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway.

According to the interview and a Chattanooga Times report in October, 1914 the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway was engaged by a motion picture production company to provide the locomotive for a motion picture on the Andrews Raid. Major Alf Law, master mechanic in charge of the Craven's Yard roundhouse was instructed to proceed with whatever repairs were required. During the initial inspection of the locomotive, it was determined that the locomotive had one injector and one water pump. Due to the fact that the report does not mention air brake equipment and that the inventory of equipment turned over to the NC&StL by the State of Georgia in 1889 (the date the initial lease was executed) listed locomotive No. 3-the General as condemned, it appears that the locomotive was never equipped with air brake equipment. It would appear that nearly everything was removed and replaced as Mr. Hancock stated that nearly everything was rotted out. As it turned out, the movie production fell through but the railroad completed the work on the locomotive, test running the locomotive on the mainline in late 1914 along the banks of the Tennessee River at Chattanooga. During the runs, the locomotive was run up to fity miles an hour. Prior to conversion to oil firing in the 1960's, she operated using a hidden coal bunker under the wood pile but there is no description of its design. Most likely it was simply a hidden steel box. Essentially there is nothing left of the 1850's locomotive with the exception of the frame. From known photographs of the General taken after her rebuild in 1871, the forward steam dome and perhaps the frame ankle rails were gone by that time. Other major portions may have been removed from the Cincinatti (former Texas) when it was shopped in 1878.

awalker2002@comcast.net

That said, there really isn't much to study physically. The real study is in the history books and contemporary accounts from the periods in which the locomotive was worked on. As for the conversion to coal burning, that was probably in 1871 when the locomotive was rebuilt. Her cosmetic restoration done in 1891 was done at the Nashville Shops of the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway. Only in the very last years did the Louisville and Nashville Railroad even associate itself with the locomotive. From the 1890's up to at least the 1950's any materials concerning the General named the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway as the party in possession. My suspicions are that this was politically motivated as the lease on the Western and Atlantic Railroad was up for renewal at about that time and it was known that the Southern Railway was doing everything possible to get the lease away from the L&N.

awalker2002@comcast.net

Concerning the Yonah, there is technical information that still exists on that locomotive, and no, it was not anything like the LaFayette which portrayed it in the Disney movie. It was a kettle type 4-4-0 built in 1848 by Rogers, Ketchum and Grosvenor. When engaged in the Andrews Raid, it was actually being operated by a crew from Cooper's Iron Works, not the railroad as the locomotive was under lease to the iron works at that time. In it's later years, it was stripped down and used as the stationary boiler at the railroad's shops in Atlanta before being scrapped in 1874. Information on this and other locomotives involved in the raid came from the personal archives of Wilbur Kurtz, Sr. and Leo Myers, two of the foremost authorities on the raid. Mr. Kurtz was the son-in-law of Captain Wm. A. Fuller, conductor of the morning mail train on the day of the raid and Mr. Myers was a historian and skilled machinist who built detailed, operating models of steam locomotives among other things.

awalker2002@comcast.net

The engine, as it stands now in Big Shanty, has both water pumps, but the one on the engineer's side is not connected and there is an English-built lifting injector there; I would guess it was applied in 1962 since an earlier installation would have had a US-built injector. Pre-1860 engines have water pumps account the injector was not yet invented. These engines have to be moved in order to pump water.

The drivers have extra-wide tires, indicating they have been regauged from 60" to 56 1/2" and the tender trucks have their wheels significantly inward from the journals, indicating the tender truck frames were built for 60" gauge.

The NC&StL had leased the W&A, and was merged into the L&N around 1956.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

And I am not that sure about the frames either Allan.

The boiler is a bit puzzling as a photo in the museum of the 1960-61 L&N rebuilding shows what may be a riveted patch over the location of the front steam dome, or perhaps just a semicircular attatchment of braces? I have a copy (somewhere) of the L&N 1961 Form 4 which shows just a sketch of the long. seam and its calcs, no better info there. L&N did some very nice arc welding to the boiler which they believed was wrot iron according to the Form 4. I wasn't sure you could weld wrot iron legally and practically.

More interesting questions......

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> TEXAS has not been altered in living memory
> and resides intact in a basement in Atlanta.

Is this the Cyclorama Building? Is the Texas owned by the city of Atlanta?

tr2manz@hotmail.com

> I wasn't sure you could weld wrot iron legally
> and practically.

Wrought Iron is pretty dirty stuff. It is full of slag and sulphide stringers. Last I knew there were only two places that produced the stuff, and both were museums.



lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Is this the Cyclorama Building? Is the Texas
> owned by the city of Atlanta?

Yes it is, not sure of the ownership.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Neither of the water pumps date back before 1914. According to accounts, the single water pump and injector were replaced at that time. The weld on the boiler probably was done in the 1960's. The riveting of the patch would have been done by 1871 if not before as the forward steam dome was gone by the time the locomotive was converted to burn coal.

awalker2002@comcast.net