I am curious about what percentage of railroad equipment at the various museums is restored. Either to operating condition or cosmetically and on display. It seems that we all have equipment needing restoration. But is over half of the equipment on restored and on display or running? or is the ratio much lower. For instance at the Michigan Transit Museum we have 5 peices of operating equipment out of a collection of abut 20 peices of equipment. What about the other museums?

Michigan Transit Museum
sutterd@hotmail.com

> I am curious about what percentage of
> railroad equipment at the various museums is
> restored. Either to operating condition or
> cosmetically and on display. It seems that
> we all have equipment needing restoration.
> But is over half of the equipment on
> restored and on display or running? or is
> the ratio much lower. For instance at the
> Michigan Transit Museum we have 5 peices of
> operating equipment out of a collection of
> abut 20 peices of equipment. What about the
> other museums?

At National Capital Trolley Museum we have:
12 Cars Operable, restored
2 Cars Operable, Non-restored
4 cars non-operable, non-restored
18 cars total


http://www.dctrolley.org

> I am curious about what percentage of
> railroad equipment at the various museums is
> restored. Either to operating condition or
> cosmetically and on display. It seems that
> we all have equipment needing restoration.
> But is over half of the equipment on
> restored and on display or running? or is
> the ratio much lower. For instance at the
> Michigan Transit Museum we have 5 peices of
> operating equipment out of a collection of
> abut 20 peices of equipment. What about the
> other museums?

Dave: I will try to answer for our museum.

STEAM (1) - currenty being cosmetically restored.

DIESEL (4) - 3 are active; 1 unrestored.

DIESEL CRANE (1) - active.

CABOOSES (5) - 3 are active, 1 partially restored, 1 restored as a display car only.

PASSENGER EQUIPMENT (4) - 2 used for storage (Baggage car and Army kitchen car), 1 being restored as a display car only (Troop sleeper), 1 cosmtically restored (steel open window coach.)

FREIGHT EQUIPMENT (20) - 1 active (gondola), 1 cosmetically restored and used for storage (boxcar), 2 being cosmetically restored (ice bunker refrigerator and open top hopper car), 9 used for storage, 4 needing cosmetic restoration, 1 needing cosmetic restoration but used for storage, 1 needing cosmetic restoration but used as lunch car for members, 1 car used for storage on ground (no trucks).

The above equipment is that owned by, or leased to, the museum. There is also a small amount of equipment on the property that are owned by members but are not part of this tally. Also, "active" means normally used by the museum for its caboose carrying passenger trains or for switching equipment around as needed.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

midlandblb@cs.com

>>I am curious about what percentage of
railroad equipment at the various museums is
restored. Either to operating condition or
cosmetically and on display.<<

Unfortunately, museums often acquire more than they can ever restore. While such aquisitions are often judged as reasonable (because that's better than allowing the stuff to rot away or be scrapped) it is typically a bad collections management policy.

Once the museum is overwhelmed with equipment, it becomes difficult to parcel out limited funds, meaning that sometimes a little work is done on a lot of stuff so that nothing is finished, or that some stuff is finished while the rest of it rots away anyway. Funding organizations, of course, take a dim view of actual museum assets deterioratating year-to-year because, among other things, it shows a musem that is worth less and less each year as stuff depreciates faster than it can be fixed up.

We see that in volunteer organizations, more people would rather operate equipment than restore it. Consequently, for every 20 people who want to run a locomotive, there is one person who wants to restore the one still sitting in the weeds. There are fewer people lined up restore other equipment.

Of course, the unanswered question here is whether some of that equipment should be preserved rather than restored. Restoration, by definition, destroys the object to some extent because it covers up (or replaces) bad paint and defective parts with new paint and new parts. Then you have to ask whether the thing you have is really a historic railcar/locomotive or a representation of what the car/locomotive looked like when it was new.

-Malcolm

malcolmrcampbell@cs.com

> I am curious about what percentage of
> railroad equipment at the various museums is
> restored....

At the Society for the Preservation for Carter Railroad Resources in Fremont CA, we have:

4 cars stabilized awaiting restoration (frames supported, tarped as needed, sealed as needed, protected from fire and vandals. Two of these cars have been subject of extensive documentation, including complete drawings. Restoration proposals are completed for 3 of them

2 replica cars (complete)

2 cars undergoing restoration (one should be completed this month!, the other is 80%)

1 car received complete, on display

3 cars fully restored

We own 2 gas locomotives, one operable, repainted, the other in need of major work.

We also have 5 pieces of light equipment, 2 pump cars (one replica, one restored) and 3 push cars (one replica, 2 fully restored)

Randy Hees

http://spcrr.org
hees@ix.netcom.com

The Huckleberry RR is not a museum, but here are our figures: Steam - 4 - 1 in service, 1 being restored for operation, 2 sitting unrestored. Internal Combustion 4 locomotives, 1 motor car - 2 locomotives in regular use, 1 stored serviceable, 1 derelict, 1 motor car in service. Passenger cars(including cabooses and converted freight cars)18 - 15 in service, 1 restored but not operational(Carbody/interior done, needs trucks and couplers),1 being restored, 1 derelict. Total - 27, 19 in service.


Martyhuck@aol.com

Well, there is restoration and there is restoration. How would you count the baggage car that looks like a baggage car from the outside but now contains displays? Maybe adaptive reuse?

Savannah has a collection comprised of the acquisitions (for dubious reasons) of generations of management not all of which were building museums. Collections rationale are just a couple years old.

So, we have a baggage car adaptively resued as a theatre,sleeper resued as a meeting room, diner reused as a diner but landlocked, two cabeese resued as other than cabeese, boxcar resued as a display venue.

Restored and operating - one steam locomotive and 3 motorcars, one Melbourne W5 tramcar, one former Kalamazoo gang car converted by another railroad into a trolley replica now converted into an open trolley replica. A landlocked 5 acre site doesn't have much need for complete operating trains.

Conserved in as retired condition: One diesel locomotive, one hopper car. One 4-6-0 landlocked in another building.

Cosmetic restorations: one wooden office car, one steam locomotive, one wooden caboose.

In the shop: one heavyweight steel office car.

Awaiting restoration or just a quick paint job: 2 steam locomotives, one caboose, one single truck Birney streetcar body. Tender for the 4-6-0. Most of this stuff collected by previous management with no plan or resources for subsequent treatment. It is good stuff but a backlog.

Acquisitions in progress (or not): Modern converted heavyweight steel office car complete, two wooden coaches, one tank car, one 4 wheeled diesel mechanical, one Burro Crane, perhaps the beginning of an operating regional excursion train? We have learned to pick and choose for specific needs.

Privately owned stored on site - one steam locomotive, also in the shop.

Streetcars are part of the efforts of the city to develop an historic trolley line to reduce parking and traffic in certain corridors. Two privately owned pieces have either been removed or converted to museum owned property within the past 3 years. Plans are now in the works to expand and tie in to the railroad system which would make the operating train useful - we have a nice system of state DOT owned and contract operated shortlines nearby.

Yeah, it takes time but more importantly it takes a plan.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Why not then offer it free to responsible good homes?

Dave


irondave@bellsouth.net

> Why not then offer it free to responsible
> good homes?

> Dave

It ain't that easy, Dave. In many cases, no other museum wants it, or it will end up being junked anyway, because someone took it who could not care for it.

Malcom made excellent points.

The "crazy Aunt locked int he cellar" in this hobby/profession is the fact that much fo the stuff that is in musuems now is not historic, significant, or anything else. It was collected because it was important to one or two influential people in the group years, maybe even decades, ago. Usually, those people are now long-gone, along with the inital reasons for acquiring the piece in the first place. Meanwhile, it sits, taking up space, dollars and manpower.

I can't think of a collection that doesn't have a few of these. They are usually ballyhooed as something important, but too often they are there only because the were important to one or two people, and that improtance runs the gamut from it being the first one they ever saw/rode/photographed (which, in their mind, makes it historic) to it simply being old, odd or weird. Sometimes it's a combination of all of the above. But the reality is that it's less about ture historic value or significance than it is about personal nostalgia, romanticism, ego, and an inability to prioritize.

The current fringe movement to label absolutely everything "historic" and demand that it be saved or restored doesn't help, either, IMO. It just ensures that 10 or 15 years down the road, museums and collections will have even more of this kind of stuff sitting around.

> the reality is that it's less about true
> historic value or significance than it is
> about personal nostalgia, romanticism, ego,
> and an inability to prioritize.

Who may I ask makes these wonderful decisions ... the current empowered gurus ? The crusty dusty "true" museum curators ? The hands-off bystanders ?

Just like any other market, offer it up out there if nobody wants it, scrap it ... if you can live with that then do it. Otherwise get to work and start preserving the old, odd and weird ... 'cause there ain't no replacements!


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Earl,

Your points are well taken. I spend a lot of time crawling in the weeds looking for what's left of the everyday artifacts that have more tales to tell than the odd.

If only we could get some agreement. When the EL SD was auctioned by CN this summer, I got hate mail from many people when I suggested the engine had no historical value. "But it was the first engine I saw" was one justification to preserve it.

Rob

> It ain't that easy, Dave. In many cases, no
> other museum wants it, or it will end up
> being junked anyway, because someone took it
> who could not care for it.

> Malcom made excellent points.

> The "crazy Aunt locked int he
> cellar" in this hobby/profession is the
> fact that much fo the stuff that is in
> musuems now is not historic, significant, or
> anything else. It was collected because it
> was important to one or two influential
> people in the group years, maybe even
> decades, ago. Usually, those people are now
> long-gone, along with the inital reasons for
> acquiring the piece in the first place.
> Meanwhile, it sits, taking up space, dollars
> and manpower.

> I can't think of a collection that doesn't
> have a few of these. They are usually
> ballyhooed as something important, but too
> often they are there only because the were
> important to one or two people, and that
> improtance runs the gamut from it being the
> first one they ever saw/rode/photographed
> (which, in their mind, makes it historic) to
> it simply being old, odd or weird. Sometimes
> it's a combination of all of the above. But
> the reality is that it's less about ture
> historic value or significance than it is
> about personal nostalgia, romanticism, ego,
> and an inability to prioritize.

> The current fringe movement to label
> absolutely everything "historic"
> and demand that it be saved or restored
> doesn't help, either, IMO. It just ensures
> that 10 or 15 years down the road, museums
> and collections will have even more of this
> kind of stuff sitting around.


Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

Agreed on all counts Earl, but how do we know if an offer isn't made? If it is and nobody steps up to bat, at least you aren't worse off than you were. If somebody with a plan and resources does step up, everybody wins. I'd sure rather see a bunch of generic coaches used up in service than in rusting into the ground.

And, GE, I reckon the decisions are made by boards of directors, probably with the advice of curators given after true consideration of the collections mandated in the museums mission statement in the best of circumstances. In the worst, there is neither a mission statement or collections policy.

Let's not forget that by trying to save everything and spreading ourselves too thin we end up saving nothing in the long run. Triage is an imperfect art but a necessary one.

If I am missing something here please let me know.

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

At the Western Railway Museum we have a collection of about 100 traction items. About half are operational; and something like 20 are operational with some restrictions. The last 20 are bodies that we have collected at least some of the needed hardware to make them run again.

We have about 35 main line railroad items that we do not plan to operate. Two steam engines and four Diesels. But most of them are going into a new 24,000 square foot car barn that will get them out of the weather.One display passenger and one freight train will contrast the main line with Interurban equipment.

There is a new wheel shop under construction. They poured three truck loads of foundation cement last weekend. One of the lathes weighs about 10 tons!



ted_miles@nps.gov

> Why not then offer it free to responsible
> good homes?

> Dave

Offering it free is not responsible because a museum that is seeking money from funding organisations looks kind of stupid if they are simultaneously giving away assets themselves.

But, the responsible thing would be to send it to a good home for some kind of consideration or other. Maybe it's not for money, but for inkind work or other assistance. Maybe it's a trade, say, a locomotive/car for artifacts.

Better to save it somewhere else than watch it fall apart where it sits.

--Malcolm


malcolmrcampbell@cs.com

> The "crazy Aunt locked int he
> cellar" in this hobby/profession is the
> fact that much fo the stuff that is in
> musuems now is not historic, significant, or
> anything else. It was collected because it
> was important to one or two influential
> people in the group years, maybe even
> decades, ago.

The basic problem comes from the fact that RR museums seldom have mainstream collections policies that govern the reasonable acquisition of some rolling stock while excluding other stuff that is outside the museum's main focus (or financial capabilities).

Influential members can always mount a strong, cry-baby campaign to save the engine that Jesus Christ used to run and that emotionalism always outweighs common sense. So, the museum takes on the new item with much hoopla and rejoicing. And sometimes, it even puts in a little work on the new locomotive, usually by stealing money from previously approved projects. Then, something stalls the project and those working on it leave it a snit or because their family is ticked at how much time they are spending at the museum or whatever. The museum is worse off for the whole thing.

--Malcolm

malcolmrcampbell@cs.com