I am home after a knee operation (which went well) and was reading some Orange Empire Railway Museum Gazettes from 1983. They talk about the purchase of a pair of maximum traction trucks that were needed
for use under a San Diego Electric car body.

Brian Norton or any other old hands at the museum do you remember this project?

This is the first time I have seen reference to building this kind of complicated truck with two small "pony wheels" and two regular size wheels in each truck.

Also a large wheel lathe was delivered to the museum and placed on a concrete pad. Did it ever get put finished and put to work?

Ted Miles

Good evening folks,

I wanted to take a minute and give this old thread a "bump".

The people behind the current restoration effort of Trenton Transit #288 were recently discussing the issue of placing the car-body on temporary wheels so the car could have some limited mobility during the rebuilding and restoration process.

Since the car was built with Brill 39E trucks, we assume that there would be some serious clearance issues if we tried to place the car-body on something like a regular freight truck.

Might anyone have some information they could share on whether it would even be possible to set a car-body designed for Brill 39E trucks onto temporary AAR shop trucks?

Also, does anyone have any idea on whether it is even possible to find an actual set of Brill 39E trucks today?

I would assume that any such trucks (if they were to exist) would most likely be in the hands of museums, and probably earmarked already for other restoration projects. However, I never want to assume anything. Better to ask (and be told "no") then to assume the truck is no longer available anywhere in the world.

In the thread above, Mr. Miles appeared to indicate that there might have been an effort underway to build a brand new pair of 39E trucks. Does anyone know if this effort ever came to pass?

Curious minds would like to know!

In the next few days, some additional information is due to be released about the Trenton Transit#288 project.

A Facebook page has recently been set up to provide a forum for the general public (i.e. non-railfans) to be able to access information about the project.

https://www.facebook.com/Trenton-Transi ... 029965704/

A new thread in this forum will soon be started so that we can keep interested parties here informed as well.

Barring any unexpected delays, Trenton Transit#288 will move for the first time in many years tomorrow. First photos should appear on Facebook tomorrow night.

The Brill 39E is a fairly rare truck today. It was designed to be used on two motor cars, one motor in each truck. To maximize the Tractive effort, the bolster was off set putting more of the weight on the motor driven larger wheel set. This left less weight on the small wheels making them prone to derail. On drop platform cars, the small wheels were put under the platform to get the car as close to the ground as possible.

The 39E truck frequently was replaced with a 77E truck, which used the more modern high speed motors. These motors were small in diameter and could be used with wheels as small as 24 inch. These trucks could be put on a drop platform car with only a small increase in carbody height. These were frequently used with two motors in each truck and the axle loading was the same on both axles.

Some years ago Seashore imported some 39E trucks from Japan. The Empire may have gotten a set of 39E trucks at that time. As I recall there was talk about having 39E frames cast at one time, but I have heard nothing recently. The trucks from Japan may have satisfied that immediate requirement and ended that effort.

Putting a freight car truck under a car designed for 39E trucks does not sound very practical, but you would have to look at the geometry of the car and trucks to see how they would fit. If this is a car waiting for restoration, making something up out of M of W equipment parts may be more practical.

Other than probably PCC trucks, any traction truck is "rare" today. How soon do you really need to find a pair? Will the car be operational or just a static display?

Though I can offer no help locating MT trucks, I offer as curiosity two pictures of perhaps not the best application of such trucks.

Though probably even more rare than Brill trucks today, there were other manufactures of one for one equivalents for most Brill models, such as this Peckham 18-B:

The Brill Shamokin & Mt. Carmel car has the earlier Brill 22 Eureka trucks. The 39E is also a maximum traction design but has a bolster. Usually the pony (small) wheel is toward the end of the car on the 39E and the opposite on the 22E.

Philadelphia's 1500 Nearside cars (1911-1915) came with Brill 39E's with 22" pony wheels and 33" powered wheels. The later 8000's (1923-1926) came with 39E2 trucks with 22" pony wheels and 28" powered wheels. The newer motor design mentioned above permitted the smaller wheels.

Here's an NMRA data sheet showing trolley trucks including a 39E.

https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/d4b.pdf

Here's a Nearside Center Exit car with 39E trucks:

http://www.ectma.org/hja_photos/ns014.jpg

Here's an 8000 with 39E2 trucks:

http://www.ectma.org/hja_photos/se036.jpg

As to the original problem, you'll have to measure the car and the trucks to determine if you can put RR car trucks under your trolley. It may have to sit way high on the shop trucks.

Phil Mulligan

Are these trucks built from cast components or are they mostly channel sections and such?
In looking into trucks for an Edwards car I found that they built theirs from mostly channel sections or even pieces of rail in early cars...apparently they only did a lot of cast parts later on.... The point being, riveted/welded construction from channels and sections cut from plate would be relatively easy to copy, with only minor mods to accommodate a roller bearing wheel set close to the original size...

Brill trucks were forged. Reproductions are being cast. Baldwin trucks used fitted tapered bolts. Due to the high shock loads on a truck it is difficult to keep bolts and rivets tight. However, I am sure the truck builders never intended them to be running 100 years later. Fabrication and material technology has changed over the years and today most transit trucks are welded fabrications. There are many ways a replacement truck could be built. But the design should include input from an experienced truck designer to avoid unexpected failures due to the extreme loading a railway truck sees.