I'm trying to fill in the gaps of Santa Fe's lightweight coaches that were sold 1969-1970 for commuter service in New York and New Jersey. I'm a little confused as to the exact set-up, but my understanding was that the cars were assigned to the PC, EL, or CNJ under lease from NJDOT or MTA (Metro-North). After seeing many years of service, these cars were sold off en masse around 1989 as the last of the cab units were retired.

I have a partial listing of the coaches the Santa Fe sold and the new numbers they received for commuter service, but it's not complete. Also, I don't have the disposition of many of the coaches, so any help in these 2 areas would be welcome. Also, I'm looking for clarification on the seating capacity of these cars while in commuter service--I've seen several different capacities listed. I'll list below the information I do have, anyone with knowledge feel free to make corrections or additions.

[1] Commuter No. [2] (Assignment) [3] (AT&SF No.) [4] Notes & Disposition
#3070 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3072 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3072
#3074 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3075 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3076 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3077 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3078 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3078
#3079 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; URHS to PV "Cocoa Grove" to Arizona RY Mus. #3079 "Diablo Canyon"
#2401 (PC) (#3080) To NJT
#3081 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3081
#3082 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3083 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3085 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3086 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3087 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3088 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3089 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3090 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3091 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3092 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3092
#3093 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3093
#3094 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3095 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3095
#3096 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3096
#3097 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3098 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3099 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3099
#2410 (PC) (#3102) To NJT
#2411 (PC) (#3104) To NJT
#2412 (PC) (#3105) To NJT
#2413 (PC) (#3106) To NJT
#2414 (PC) (#3107) To NJT
#2415 (PC) (#3108) To NJT
#2404 (PC) (#3109) To NJT
#2416 (PC) (#3110) To NJT
#2417 (PC) (#3111) To NJT
#2418 (PC) (#3112) To NJT
#2419 (PC) (#3113) To NJT
#2420 (PC) (#3114) To NJT
#2405 (PC) (#3115) To NJT
#2421 (PC) (#3116) To NJT; Harlansburg, PA
#2406 (PC) (#3119) To NJT
#2422 (PC) (#3137) To NJT; Knoxville, TN
#2438 (PC) (#3155) To MTA; Madison, WI
#2442 (PC) (#2795) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Toadlena"; to NJT
#2443 (PC) (#2796) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Salahkai"; to NJT
#2444 (PC) (#2797) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Tonalea"; to NJT
#2445 (PC) (#2799) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Toreva"; to NJT
#2446 (PC) (#2801) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Wupatki"; to NJT
#2447 (PC) (#2802) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Yampai"; to NJT
#2448 (PC) (#2803) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Segatoa"; to NJT
#2468 (PC) (#2806) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Maito"; to NJT
#2469 (PC) (#2807) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Otowi"; to NJT
#2470 (PC) (#2809) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Tuba"; to NJT
#2459 (PC) (#2810) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Paria"; to MTA
#2456 (PC) (#2812) ex-4DR-1DB obs sleeper "Betahtakin"; to MTA
#2457 (PC) (#2813) ex-4DR-1DB obs sleeper "Chaistla"; to MTA
#2450 (PC) (#2950) ex-14 section sleeper "Dinnebito"; to MTA
#2451 (PC) (#2951) ex-14 section sleeper "Ganado"; to MTA
#2452 (PC) (#2952) ex-14 section sleeper "Hakatai"; to MTA; wrecked 1977
#2453 (PC) (#2953) ex-14 section sleeper "Havasu"; to MTA
#2454 (PC) (#2954) ex-14 section sleeper "Hoskinnini"; to MTA
#2455 (PC) (#2955) ex-14 section sleeper "Hotauta"; to MTA

Of the coaches, I know 2 are now on the Cuyahoga Valley, having come from the Cedar Rapids & Iowa City, but I don't have the AT&SF or commuter numbers. In addition to the #2421 (#3116), there is at least 1 additional ex-AT&SF coach at Harlansburg, number unknown. Of the several ex-AT&SF coaches at the depot in Madison, WI, I have identified only the #2438 (#3155). Of the coaches at the Indiana Transportation Museum, I have identified the numbers of only 8 of the 15 ex-AT&SF cars they purchased. I know one was burned by vandals while in storage (number unknown), and I also don't know the numbers of the 6 other remaining cars.

Any information on the unidentified cars floating around or any additional survivors is welcome, as is information on AT&SF coaches that went into commuter service I didn't list (I know I've missed several). Corrections are also welcome. Thanks in advance.

Some of these were offered to the URRHS in Jersey, perhaps they have a few? I know they were supposed to get 3070 which was Budd's first full size mainline car -- unfortunately the scrapper got to it before they did. 2422 is/was at a company called Southern Constructors out in the Forks of the River area. What about the car that Greensboro Chapter had? Pomona? And weren't there a couple of these in New Hampshire???

ETA

ETA--

Thanks for the info. Added the disposition of the 3070 and the company of location for the 2422 (3137). As for the coach formerly owned by the NRHS Greensboro Chapter, that still remains a mystery. I checked the Greensboro Chapter website, the website of the current owner, Blue Ridge Scenic, Jerry LaBoda's photo links, and reread the "Southern Excursion Fleet" thread, and could not find either the AT&SF or commuter numbers for the car. Here's what I have: AT&SF to NJT (CNJ) to URHS to NRHS Greensboro #549 "Pomona" to Blue Ridge Scenic Railway #549. One comment stated it had been rebuilt from a coach observation to a full coach. The Blue Ridge website states it was a 1938 Budd product.

I'll be back later with information on the 5 cars owned by Green Mountain Railroad up in Bellows Falls.

Okay, so ETA mentioned the presence of a couple up in NH, which reminded me of the Budd coaches in excursion service on the Green Mountain. I had forgotten to check the heritage of those cars, so I went back to Jerry LaBoda's photo links, and sure enough, the Green Mountain has 5 ex-AT&SF coaches on its roster. Of the 5, 4 I had listed above as going into commuter service, the last I had not.

Added Dispositions For:
[1] Commuter No. [2] (Assignment) [3] (AT&SF No.) [4] Notes & Disposition
#3074 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain #3074
#3075 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain #3075
#3089 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain #3089
#3091 (EL) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain #3091

Added to the List:
[1] Commuter No. [2] (Assignment) [3] (AT&SF No.) [4] Notes & Disposition
#3101 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain #3101

Thanks again ETA, for the info.

Anyone have further additions or corrections?

I think the Greensboro car was one of the two Obs cars on your list. I remember they took good care of the car, but some combination of commuter seats and pre-war trucks was not always the most comfortable.

ETA

Hmm. Interesting.

I guess I should've mentioned that the 2 converted observation sleepers I had listed were actually built by Pullman-Standard, not Budd, which means that the coach owned by the Greensboro Chapter (now by Blue Ridge Scenic) must be from another group of observation cars converted to coaches, as pictures clearly show it as a Budd product. Looks like it remains a mystery.

Pictures of the mystery coach (currently numbered 549) in service on the Blue Ridge Scenic:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=851277
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=873898
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1916526
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2485959
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3293657

Thanks again, ETA.

Would that car be "BR-549"???

Sorry, couldn't resist. (And for those who don't get the reference, Google is your friend.....)

Greetings:
As I recall, Valley Railroad Co. purchased 5 of these to strip the air conditioning systems out of for our dinner train.
After stripping, we sold them through a frequent poster here. I think that a couple were saved...
Perhaps he will remember the car numbers and dispositions (I don't!).
J.David

Santa Fe had a number of chair-observation cars that it rebuilt for mid-train use. All the following information from the Coach and Chair car book published by the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society.

Two cars were 3198 and 3199 built by Budd in 1938 for the El Capitan became AT&SF 2946 and 2947 in 1960.
ATSF chair obs 3198 became chair 2946 to PC 2424 [sic]
ATSF chair obs 3199 became chair 2947 to PC 2407

There was another group of five Budd built chair-observation cars in 1938. Some started out as parlor-observation and converted to chair-observation prior to the Second World War.
ATSF chair obs 3240 became chair 2957 to PC 2424 [sic]
ATSF chair obs 3241 became chair 2948 to PC 2408
ATSF chair obs 3242 became chair 2949 to PC 2409
ATSF chair obs 3243 became chair 2958 to Amtrak 4460
ATSF chair obs 3244 became chair 2929 to Amtrak 4461

Budd built chair-observation car 3197 in 1940. It was never converted to mid-train service and was used used between Clovis and Carlsbad behind motorcars M190 and M160. It is now in the collection of Museum of the American Railroad at Frisco, Texas.

Then in 1941 another Budd chair-observation car arrived:
ATSF chair obs 3245 became chair 2960 to Amtrak 4462

After WWII three Pullman built chair-observation cars were built in 1947
ATSF chair obs 3246 became chair 2991 to Amtrak 4880
ATSF chair obs 3247 became chair 2992
ATSF chair obs 3248 became chair 2993 to Amtrak 4881

A couple of notes:
The Santa Fe book shows two different cars becoming PC 2424.
On the Santa Fe chair cars had reclining seats and coaches had straight-back seats.

Thanks Brian, for all the info on the coaches converted from observations!

From that, I added 5 cars to the list:
[1] Commuter No. [2] (Assignment) [3] (AT&SF No.) [4] Notes & Disposition
#2424 (1st) (PC) (#2946) ex-#3198; to NJT
#2407 (PC) (#2947) ex-#3199; to NJT
#2424 (2nd) (PC) (#2957) ex-#3240; to NJT
#2408 (PC) (#2948) ex-#3241; to NJT
#2409 (PC) (#2949) ex-#3242; to NJT

Anyone know why the Santa Fe RY Hist. & Mod. Soc. book would have 2 coaches with the same commuter number? Also, anyone know which of these cars is now Blue Ridge Scenic #549, or is it a different car altogether?

I was looking through Jerry LaBoda's photo links site again and found one I had forgotten about. Also added it to the list.

[1] Commuter No. [2] (Assignment) [3] (AT&SF No.) [4] Notes & Disposition
#2449 (PC) (#2811) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Chimayo"; to NJT; Galveston Railroad Museum "Chimayo"



Thanks, David, for the info! Another mystery to solve!

I am the "frequent poster" mentioned by J David. I do not have a file of all the NJT cars I owned. Many of them I owned for a month or two, and then resold to someone's dinner train. It was how I made a living after I was laid off by Steamtown Foundation. I think the five cars Dave mentioned went to Kasten Railcar Service.

Southern Construction did scrap the 3070 (although the dim reches of my mind seems to recall the name was "Southerd", not Southern). The car was in Newfoundland at the time, and I was sick of it. If I had any inkling it was going to happen, I could have bought it; I though it belonged to URHS.

I have a worn-out copy of the Randall equipment annual (the one with the green cover, long ago missing) that I noted in the margins which NJT cars I owned. If I can find it, I wil report.

Steve Zuiderveen

[/color]Probably data transfer/copy error.

I got out my copy of Railway Passenger Car Annual Vol I 1973-1974 (orange cover) from RPC Publication with the railroad car data compiled by W. David Randall. The listing for PennCentral provides this information:
100-seat coach 2424 is ex-ATSF 2946, ex-3198
100-seat coach 2425 is ex-ATSF 2956, ex-Taos
100-seat coach 2426 is ex-ATSF 2957, ex-3240

Same information in the Vol II 1975 green-cover edition.

This is my xNJT ownership list. I would not vouch for it 100%, but it is a start.

“Abato” is Jeff Abato Truck Sales. I acquired some cars through him. I also bought a lot of ni-cad batteries out of green motors through him. He had a scrap yard on a dock adjacent to the Greenville car float, but I think I got most of the cars/parts directly out of the Mahwah yard.

ETIX was a tourist train that ran for a while out of Galveston. KRSX is Kasten Railcar Service. I think WCRC is Washington Central

328 MP470 ACF ‘48 ETIX xAbato
330 MP490 PS ’50 TVRM (ex CO “Torch Lake”)
334 MP497 ACF ’48 KRSX
339 RI317 Budd ’41 ETIX xAbato
340 MP420 ACF ’48 ETIX xAbato
344 TP455 ACF ’48 ETIX xAbato
2400 ATSF3080 Budd ’37 KRSX (3/88)
2411 ATSF3103 Budd ’37 WCRC
2414 ATSF3106 Budd ’37 WCRC (3/88)
2419 ATSF3113 Budd ’37 Volant, PA, gift shop painted PRR (3/88)
2420 ATSF3114 Budd ’37 WCRC
2421 ATSF3116 Budd ’37 Volant, PA, gift shop painted PRR (3/88)
2422 ATSF3137 Budd ’41 KRSX (3/88)
(2442) ATSF2795 PS ’38 Not owned by me, scrapped Naporano 6/90
2449 ATSF2811 PS ’38 ETIX


Steve
(sorry about formatting, tabs don't work on this site)

Thanks, Steve, for all the information on the cars you purchased! Clarified the identity of the second car now at the Harlansburg Station Transportation Museum!

WCRC does indeed stand for the Washington Central Railroad, which operated the successful Spirit of Washington Dinner Train in the Seattle area for many years (before a highway expansion project killed it), and they used 2 of the ex-AT&SF coaches in their regular consist. What I don't know is which 2 of the 3 were used. The 2 cars were renumbered and named, as the #103 "Cascade" (reconfigured to dining tables) and the #101 "Olympic" (remodeled to a half-open air coach, half-closed dining area).

After the SofW Dinner Train folded, the WCRC cars were stored for several years on the former Lewis & Clark Railroad (ex-NP) down in Vancouver, WA, before being purchased by Iowa Pacific-San Luis & Rio Grande for their passenger operation on the Santa Cruz & Monterey Bay Railway. Other than the 2 Canadian covered wagons that pulled the SofW, I have seen no evidence as of yet that the ex-WCRC cars have gone into service on the SC&MB. They had been stored for a while, and Iowa Pacific is most likely in the process of refurbishing the cars at their facility in Colorado. Currently, the SC&MB runs are using ex-AT&SF Budd full domes, ex-AT&SF Budd 48 seat leg rest coaches and ex-PRR Budd commuter coaches rebuilt from "Inn"-series 21 roomette sleepers.

Here's a photo each of the 2 ex-AT&SF coaches that WCRC used in the consist of the Spirit of Washington Dinner Train:
#101 "Olympic" (half-and-half car): http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1060407 (Robert Ulberg photo)
#103 "Cascade" (table car): http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1060410 (Robert Ulberg photo)

As a side note, does anyone know what "ETIX" stood for?





Thanks, Brian, for the clarification on the commuter numbers of the 2946 and 2957! Also was able to add the 2425 (ex-2956, nee-sleeper "Taos") to the list!

Thanks to ETA, Dave, Brian, and Steve for providing all the information on these ex-Santa Fe coaches! I have more cars on the list now than what I started out with, and many more current whereabouts or final dispositions!

Okay, here's the latest version of the list:

[1] Commuter No. [2] (Assignment) [3] (AT&SF No.) [4] Notes & Disposition
#3070 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Southerd Construction; scrapped at Newfoundland, NJ
#3072 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3072
#3074 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain RR #3074
#3075 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain RR #3075
#3076 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3077 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3078 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3078
#3079 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; URHS to PV "Cocoa Grove" to Arizona RY Mus. #3079 "Diablo Canyon"
#2400 (PC) (#3080) To NJT; S. Zuiderveen to Kasten Railcar Services
#3081 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3081
#3082 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3083 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3085 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3086 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3087 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3088 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3089 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain RR #3089
#3090 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3091 (EL) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain RR #3091
#3092 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3092
#3093 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3093
#3094 (CNJ) (same) To NJT
#3095 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3095
#3096 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3096
#3097 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3098 (EL) (same) To NJT
#3099 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Indiana Trans. Mus. #3099
#3101 (CNJ) (same) To NJT; Green Mountain RR #3101
#2410 (PC) (#3102) To NJT
#2411 (PC) (#3103) To NJT; S. Zuiderveen to Washington Central RR
#2412 (PC) (#3104) To NJT
#2413 (PC) (#3105) To NJT; Cedar Rapids & Iowa City #113 to Oklahoma RY Mus. #113 "The Oklahoman" to Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR #113
#2414 (PC) (#3106) To NJT; S. Zuiderveen to Washington Central RR
#2415 (PC) (#3108) To NJT
#2404 (PC) (#3109) To NJT
#2416 (PC) (#3110) To NJT
#2417 (PC) (#3111) To NJT
#2418 (PC) (#3112) To NJT
#2419 (PC) (#3113) To NJT; S. Zuiderveen to Volant, PA gift shop to Harlansburg Station Trans. Mus.
#2420 (PC) (#3114) To NJT; S. Zuiderveen to Washington Central RR
#2405 (PC) (#3115) To NJT
#2421 (PC) (#3116) To NJT; S. Zuiderveen to Volant, PA gift shop to Harlansburg Station Trans. Mus.
#2406 (PC) (#3119) To NJT
#2422 (PC) (#3137) To NJT; S. Zuiderveen to Kasten Railcar Services to Southern Constructors (at the Forks of the River Ind. Park, Knoxville, TN)
#2438 (PC) (#3155) To MTA; Madison Depot Restaurant (Madison, WI)
#2424 (PC) (#2946) ex-coach observation #3198; to NJT
#2407 (PC) (#2947) ex-coach observation #3199; to NJT; Cedar Rapids & Iowa City #115 to Oklahoma RY Mus. #115 "Kerr McGee Explorer"
#2426 (PC) (#2957) ex-parlor observation #3240; to NJT
#2408 (PC) (#2948) ex-parlor observation #3241; to NJT
#2409 (PC) (#2949) ex-parlor observation #3242; to NJT
#2450 (PC) (#2950) ex-14 section sleeper "Dinnebito"; to MTA
#2451 (PC) (#2951) ex-14 section sleeper "Ganado"; to MTA
#2452 (PC) (#2952) ex-14 section sleeper "Hakatai"; to MTA; wrecked 1977
#2453 (PC) (#2953) ex-14 section sleeper "Havasu"; to MTA
#2454 (PC) (#2954) ex-14 section sleeper "Hoskinnini"; to MTA
#2455 (PC) (#2955) ex-14 section sleeper "Hotauta"; to MTA
#2425 (PC) (#2956) ex-2C-2DR-6DB sleeper "Taos"; to NJT
#2449 (PC) (#2811) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Chimayo"; to NJT; S. Zuiderveen to ETIX to Galveston RR Mus. "Chimayo"
#2468 (PC) (#2806) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Maito"; to NJT
#2469 (PC) (#2807) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Otowi"; to NJT
#2459 (PC) (#2810) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Paria"; to MTA
#2470 (PC) (#2809) ex-17RM-1S sleeper "Tuba"; to NJT
#2443 (PC) (#2796) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Salahkai"; to NJT
#2448 (PC) (#2803) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Segatoa"; to NJT
#2442 (PC) (#2795) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Toadlena"; to NJT; Naporano Iron & Metal Co.; scrapped, 1990
#2444 (PC) (#2797) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Tonalea"; to NJT
#2445 (PC) (#2799) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Toreva"; to NJT
#2446 (PC) (#2801) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Wupatki"; to NJT
#2447 (PC) (#2802) ex-2C-2DB-8S sleeper "Yampai"; to NJT
#2456 (PC) (#2812) ex-4DR-1DB sleeper observation "Betahtakin"; to MTA
#2457 (PC) (#2813) ex-4DR-1DB sleeper observation "Chaistla"; to MTA

Mysteries:

1. Which 2 of the 3 cars that Steve sold to the Washington Central were used in the consist of the Spirit of Washington Dinner Train? Anyone know what happened to the third car?

2. The Cedar Rapids & Iowa City (CRANDIC) had at least 3 ex-AT&SF coaches, numbered #112, #113 (ex-#2413) & #115 (ex-#2407). These 3 cars later went to the Oklahoma RY Museum, and the #112 & #113 are now on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR. The only car I haven't been able to identify is the #112. Does anyone know the identity of this coach, and did the CRANDIC have any other ex-AT&SF coaches?

3. Can anyone identify the 5 coaches the Valley Railroad acquired for A/C parts and then sold to Steve?

4. I checked Jerry LaBoda's photo links website again and found that the Maine Coast Railroad owned an ex-AT&SF commuter coach. Anyone know the identity, and its current whereabouts?

Are there additional AT&SF coaches that went into commuter service I do not yet have on the list? Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.