http://thecharlestongazette.com/News/201202130154

20 million seems light for this project, but it could open some interesting possibilities.

I'd ride it - but my wife wouldn't if it were 90 miles at 10 MPH. As the centerpiece of a multiple day mountain experience package, it rocks..........but you'd need to develop vendors for lodging,meals and the ancillary experiences to which it would connect. Very interesting.

dave

WVC certainly does not operate at 10MPH...by any means.

Huh, I thought that might be possible. However I believe to complete the loop, they would need to traverse the Cass. Some crazy mountain railroading with tight curves and two switchbacks. I wouldn't figure a set of F7s with stainless steel coaches would just be able to saunter their way over it. I figure Cass uses the type of stock they use (Shays and converted flatcars) for a reason.

I would think the implication would mean the revival of the long abandoned C&O route which of course connects with Cass at CASS and the WVC Connection at Spruce...not literal operations over the Cass Scenic Railroad.

This is purely speculation on my part, but here goes. I would think a diesel-powered train (or doodlebug) would run the old WM from Elkins to Durbin. Then passengers would board the Durbin Rocket, traversing the old C&O to Cass. Then, the Cass train over the mountain to Spruce. Then another diesel powered train (or doodlebug) north on the WM back to Elkins.

Unless I'm missing something somewhere, alot of railroad will have to be replaced to make this happen.

I love this kind of thinking. Outstanding!

I rode the Cass to Durbin segment (a good portion sitting on the coal bunker of Shay #6) months before the flood. I have dreamed of being able to do so again.

Rob

@ Dave...that's an awful lot of transferring for one trip. Transfers deter riders, single stream ride would be more sensible. It will be interesting to see the master plan.

Agreed, but the market for an all day survival trip is limited - special occasions yes, but 8 per day every day? We need to think about impulse based purchasers here, willing to buy a couple hours entertainment but not all day on a train. We interest them in a broader than just train ride based set of experiences to overcome that. Perhaps trains running in opposite directions that can do an out-and -back with other experiences at the turnaround point?

dave

Imagine if you will, walking into the Depot at Cass, and being presented the following options:
a 2 hour round trip to Whittiaker,
a 2 hour round trip to Durbin
a 5 hour round trip to Bald Knob,
a 5 hour round trip to High Falls of the Cheat,
a 8 hour round trip around the loop (counter clock wise)
a 8-10 hour round trip to Elkins
a one way with over night accomadations to Snowshoe resort
a one way with over night accomadations at Elkins
a one way with over night accomadations at Beverly
a one way with over night accomadations at Durbin


there is no currently proposed schedual at this time but the possiblities as I have been running them are hard to fully imagine. When you throw in 4 rail trails that will be now linked it opens up some tremendous possiblities.

all of this accomplished with only 2 new additions of WVC trains and Cass's operation won't be drasticly changed. Currently it's being looked at more as asset better asset utilization.

Marketing this exprince will be key, but the elements are all there for both the big sells, the daisy pickers, the large part of a day tripers, the all day tripers and the railfan.

I hope it works out!

Ben

I can think of a few that already do all day trips with great sucess...D&S, C&TS, GSMR and even the WVC (did their 128 mile 9 hour trip and still do a 6.5 hour trip), among others! A 90 mile trip at 20-30 miles per hour is not an 8 hour adventure, 5-6 hours maybe (with layovers). If they plan to do 10mph, they might as well forget it...but as stands, the WVC has good track and operates at a decent speed. The advantage of a circle trip verses the out and back trip also allows for more interest. Once people have been taking from point A to B, the trip back is just to get back. This concept of a circle route offers "non stop change" in terms of scenery. Also, as stated, add in the possibility of over-night stays in the area, it is well worth the adventure for a weekend or week long vacation for both families and retired people, who make up the bulk of the revenue.

I can see this offered as a package deal, its not that much of a stretch of the imagination, by any means. This is not an area for much impulse ...you have to plan for the time you're there, because of the area and because of all you CAN see, that requires more than a one or two hour outing (which is currently offered by the WVC via the Durbin Rocket)...its an area that just a couple hours does no justice to.

Yes, but the thing to remember is that tourism opportunities in the West Virginia area are limited, at best. You've got hiking, fishing, whitewater rafting....and the train. I'm not sure that the typical tourist model of a short train ride is the same in West Virginia. Elkins is the only town on the route that even has a fast food restaurant.

The West Virginia Central has shown that long train trips are worthwhile, and you are dealing with some very scenic and VERY remote railroading, which is what has made a lot of the long-distance tourist railroads successful (ie Durango, C&TS, White Pass & Yukon, etc).

Still, that's a heck of a lot of work. You'd have to put the track back from Durbin to Elk River Junction, and the line from Durbin to Cass resembles a logging railroad on the operable portions, and 30 years of floods and deferred maintanance on the rest of it. You'd also have to deal with the fact that the Climax at Durbin is under state boiler inspectors, not the FRA and that would change if you do all of this, making for an expensive proposition.

Be interesting to see what happens here.
Kevin

No one Has mentioned MAINTAINING said 90 miles of track, and even a ticket price for 90 miles of railroad excitement,

these are very large amounts of travel time and distances, the finest example of managing track costs is Conway Scenics Crawford Line " I believe just over or under 50% of the ticket sales go to the state for a DEDICATED CRAWFORD FUND" in wich the state hands back money for track maintance "let me stress this is not GENERAL FUND MONEY" what ever track maintance needs to be preformed is completed with said funds, and I have to say with the lighter rail on the notch, "it is a fantastic ride", and conways M/W does alot of the work if not all, but it leaves the option for outside vendors to completed work that may not be handled by the m/w team in place

FYI I would also not want to take a trip any more distance than that trip in one day, It does wear you out

I liked daves idea of "vendor support" IE lodging and meals, shopping/entertainment

As exciting as all of this sounds, It is unrealistic to complete and would be an unfortunate struggle for all parties involved, someone hasn't thought this out,

Unless these trips are Seasonal Specials in wich Hardcore travelers would enjoy, I do not see a "Family Freindly market here" where a Regular schedule would run, and the finacial rescources are overwhealming for 10-20 days of operation a year

I'm all for the trackage rights and railbanking for this project, but I would experiment before throwing all the eggs in the basket

Case in point --- The Valley Railroad still does not run into Middletown and "Why is that ya think", "And its not cause of the boat ride"

Stand by for the howls of accusation of being a "Nattering Nabob of Negativity" by the starry-eyed optimists, Chris (and Kevin and Dave and...). >;-)

I would really like this to work. But I'm forced to remember that I had been asked twice at gas stations in that region "How do I get back to civilization?" My personal feeling is that I try to ride a train like this (or the W&W or the Verde Canyon or the EBT or...) to get away from civilization, fast food, "smart phones," and the like. I can still taste, in my mind, the sticky buns from the Amish/Mennonite home bakery that Carl Franz "ordered" (well, strongly recommended) us to visit while we were inbound for a Cass charter.

But I am a minority, as are most of us here. I know wi-fi access is still critical at places like the Inn at Snowshoe Resort.

So I guess the fact that the WVC currently runs, 6.5 hour trips, covering 88 miles, and selling them out at $62 per adult, $54 for kids, means nothing to what the possibilities are for this route in question? They did also offer the 128 mile RT to Spruce, but not this year, "due to circumstances beyond our control", which if I recall, sold out as well.

In a similar location as far as remoteness, the GSMR runs 4.5/5.5 hour trips and hauls over 200,000 per year?

I agree it may be a stretch of the imagination to REBUILD this route, but saying they won't get anyone riding it, if rebuilt, is typical railfan b.s. that shows a lack of understanding basic marketing. Many said the WVC wouldn't survive after they reopened their line deferred maintenance routes, but looks like they proved a great many wrong.

W&W, as Alex mentions, is in a VERY heavy metro area...runs over 350 trains per year, but only averages about 35,000 people per year...In a very big market as well, the NH&I hauls only about 80,000-90,000 a year, running 7 trips, 7 days a week for 9 months out of the year...Strasburg is the typical response to big numbers, but their survival is based on solely on their location...not the railroad itself. They would be in the same position as Stewartstown if it weren't for the Amish draw of years past that built their fame.

Prime Location is not everything. The biggest gripe with EBT is the drive to nowhere, for a one hour trip and that it is not worth it for many, but turn it into a "day long" trip, covering the whole route (66 mile round trip) would, as stated by all, so much better for the Railroad, and I completely agree!

Having the benefits of being a remote destination itself with marketable places to stay and visit within the region, would give this the potential to bring in sustaining numbers.

Tour Groups love day long/weekend places to sell to their customers, this is what benefits the White Pass...if not for the boats, that railroad would have been torn up years ago. Again, with the W&W, their big fall foliage numbers came from the busloads (sometimes an entire train would be sold out to one tour group) who would chose their 2 hour trips over the 1 hour fall trips.