By fairly early in the 20th century, freight trains on many railroads were quite long. How did the caboose crew communicate with the engine crew? When did radios come into widespread use?

Always wondered about this.

JPS

ironandsteam@msn.com

Freight crews used lanterns and hand signals. Then train phones came into use in the mid-20th c., and later radios. Passenger train crews used communication lines.

> By fairly early in the 20th century, freight
> trains on many railroads were quite long.
> How did the caboose crew communicate with
> the engine crew? When did radios come into
> widespread use?

> Always wondered about this.

> JPS

But well before the mid 20th century freights were often in the 70-80 car range. How could the conductor "give the highball" to the engineer with a hand signal if he was that far away?

JPS

> Freight crews used lanterns and hand
> signals. Then train phones came into use in
> the mid-20th c., and later radios. Passenger
> train crews used communication lines.


ironandsteam@msn.com

Easy, they used lanterns. That was perfectly visable from 70-80 cars away.

> But well before the mid 20th century
> freights were often in the 70-80 car range.
> How could the conductor "give the
> highball" to the engineer with a hand
> signal if he was that far away?

> JPS

> Easy, they used lanterns. That was perfectly
> visable from 70-80 cars away.

The other thing to keep in mind is that this was back in the days, not so long ago, when the full crew, i.e. 5 man crew was still the norm.

drotarinoh@webtv.net

> Easy, they used lanterns. That was perfectly
> visable from 70-80 cars away.

Alrighty' that sounds good, but way up here in Mountain country as far as I know there ain't a straight spot that long for miles, and brush, buildings, hills and other thinks would obcure vision in most curves. adds another degree of diffuclty.

Ben

P.S. As one old man told me when I told him I was going in to the Engineering department, "I've had to tell many an engineer that not all grounds flat and it does rain"


btrue@vt.edu

On long freight trains, in the days before radio was in common use, communication was either face to face or by hand signal. If there was work to be done at a station, the conductor would usually tell the engineer the plan before the train left the initial terminal. Remember, they were usually required to compare watches and go over any train orders that they had before leaving the initial terminal. When ready to depart, the conductor would give the engineer the proceed signal and board the caboose as it rolled by (that's why cabooses had the big curved grab irons).

If for some reason the conductor needed to give the engineer some information once the train was underway, either he or one of the other rear end crewmen would walk up to the locomotive to pass the information on. If they had to stop and then restart the train, they would simply use hand signals. If you needed to give a hand signal from the rear of the train and it was around a curve or otherwise out of sight of the head end, the solution was simply to have the rear brakeman walk along the car tops until he was on a boxcar in the middle of the train where he could see both ends or another crew member. They would relay the hand signal from the rear end to the head end. This practice continued well into the radio age as early radios:a) were very bulky and typically only used from inside the locomotive or caboose and b) were not nearly as reliable or durable as the radios we have today.

awalker2002@comcast.net

> Alrighty' that sounds good, but way up here
> in Mountain country as far as I know there
> ain't a straight spot that long for miles,
> and brush, buildings, hills and other thinks
> would obcure vision in most curves. adds
> another degree of diffuclty.

> Ben

> P.S. As one old man told me when I told him
> I was going in to the Engineering
> department, "I've had to tell many an
> engineer that not all grounds flat and it
> does rain"
'
Most railroads used whistle signals as well. On the D&RGW they used them extensively on the line that is now the Cumbres and Toltec. They still use whistle signals authentically today on that line, and blow for yard limits en route for an example of this.

There were whistle signals for a variety of uses.

Greg Scholl


Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

Another common way for the conductor to pass a signal along to the engineer was through the brakepipe. The conductor could use the conductor valve in the caboose to make the engineers brake valves in the cab have strange readings. They would also set the brakes from the caboose (not an emergency app.) to stop the trains movement, do what they needed too and then restore the air to the train. When the pressure came back up, the engineer knew it was ok to proceed.

WHITEWATER VALLEY RAILROAD

lumpy72@msn.com

Was there a standard set of hand and lantern signals, or did each railroad have its own unique codes? And does anyone know of a web site that would offer a chart of the signals and their meanings (either a "standard" or at least for one railroad if there wasn't a standard)?

Having only worked in train service for the last few years, I'm frankly amazed that anyone survived more than a couple of years in the pre-radio days. No two hand signals by no two people look alike and given the possible multiplication by a five man crew, the chance for misinterpretation is very real. Railroading is still a very dangerous occupation, even with radios, and I sometimes wonder how anyone lived to retire in the old days..

ryarger@rypn.org

Try the link below for some info posted on Roger P. Hensley's Web site.

Cheers,
Keith Albrandt

Communications -or how to railroad without a radio
kalbrandt@rypn.org

I am really surprised that that much of the "old daze" is already forgotten! A TEAM of five guys WORKED TOGETHER to get the job done. The old rulebooks, and it is carried into the new, have all the signals necessary to get the job done without radios.
Quickly grab "a holt of" some oldtimers and get this stuff set down for your next museum project before it all goes away. It is a lot of fun to work safely without radios (knowing that the piece of paper in the conductors pocket gives you ownership of that piece of track) and you will find it can be done, although with a slightly different view of the time it takes to do the job.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

As noted in Mr. Hensley's site, hand signals were prescribed in the Operating Rule Book of each road, and are still in effect in the NORAC book. In certain congested terminals there are too many shifters and not enough frequencies for radio to be unambiguous. Here, hand signals are still used.

Peter Josserand's "Rights of Trains," published by Simmons-Boardman, contains the Standard Code of Operating Rules as of 1957, and seems to be back in print. RR Museum of PA Bookstore had a couple of copies Saturday.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

One other issue that is often overlooked is that with the arrival of radios came the risk that a crewmember might misinterpret a transmission or mistake a transmission meant for another train or person as being for them. Also, when using a radio to direct a movement, most railroads do not require that the person directing the move be visable to the engineer. Many of the switching fatalities we have each year occur because the engineer could not see where the victim was or what they were doing.

In the old days, to use hand signals you had to stand where you were visable to the engineer or fireman. If they couldn't understand what you wanted them to do, the train didn't move until there was a clear understanding as to what was to be done. I would argue that in some cases, particularly where multiple trains are operating, unless you need train to train or train to dispatcher communications, radios can make rail operations more dangerous than if operations were being conducted with only hand signals.

Personally I prefer to avoid using the radio unless it is absolutely necessary. Doing yard switching, I rarely ever use the radio during daylight operations. While conducting passenger road operations, I will use the radio only where conditions require it. With hand signals, there's no "maybe" factor. You either can or can't tell what you are being told to do and if you can't tell what you're being told to do, you get clarification from the person in charge of the movement. SAFETY FIRST ALWAYS!

awalker2002@comcast.net