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Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44408		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  rlsteam [ Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
A respondent from Germany is looking for the source of a diagram he found on a Wikipedia page, without attribution. It shows a 4-6-4 with a large trailing truck, labeled "Unitary Machinery Support as Applied to a 4-6-4 Type Locomotive." It is obviously not a NYC Hudson (note, e.g., the crosshead, not of the "alligator" type) and the longer trailing truck does not fit other 4-6-4s I could locate. The respondent is of the opinion that this is a proposal, perhaps early in the "super-power" era, not a locomotive that was actually built. Can anyone enlighten him as to the source of the diagram?

Attachments:
464_diagram.jpg
464_diagram.jpg [ 31.35 KiB | Viewed 7849 times ]
Author:  EJ Berry [ Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
The trailing truck looks like the frame-extension type such as were under the Erie 2-8-4's versus the conventional type under the 4-6-4's that were actually built. Is that a booster on the rear axle? Really big boiler, too. Drivers look low for a 4-6-4.

Are there any dimensions?

Phil Mulligan
Author:  rlsteam [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
As far as I know, no other information. At least my German respondent hasn't provided any.
Author:  Pat Fahey [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
Hi All
Looking at the diagram of the posted diagram, it was suggested by the other two posts, that the locomotive has low drivers. Well, I am more than likely wrong on this.
The Locomotive looks like a Boston & Albany J2c they were Lima built, I know the crosshead is wrong, in the attached photo. But that is my guest.

Attachments:
IMG_0022.jpg JPEG Image 750 × 249 pixels - Copy (2).jpg
IMG_0022.jpg JPEG Image 750 × 249 pixels - Copy (2).jpg [ 30.08 KiB | Viewed 7573 times ]
Author:  EJ Berry [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
Could it be the Lima proposal for the B&A J-2 with the articulated frame trailing truck as used in the Lima B&A A-1 2-8-4's?

Phil Mulligan
Author:  Howard P. [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
That's 96% a Lima articulated trailing truck. The NYC Hudsons all had the more usual GSC cast-frame swiveling trailer.

I'm thinking this may have some relation to the ICRR rebuild of an early-style Lima 2-8-4 (which had those articulated trailers) into a "freight Hudson". One was rebuilt, but apparently, it was proposed to rebuild 50 2-8-4s to Hudsons. The one that was converted had a conventional GSC swiveling trailing truck. Perhaps this diagram showed the planned rebuilds, re-using the Lima truck?

Howard P.
Author:  David Dewey [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
The "front view" cut-away make me think "Narrow Gauge" if that's any clue. The driver spacing looks to be narrow, but that's only "Looks."
But it might be a clue.
Author:  jayrod [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
I’m betting on artistic license of no particular locomotive. Big barrel, small drivers, narrow gauge and what looks like a simplified guess at a trailing truck booster. But as stated many times previously, I’m a diesel guy, what do I know....
Author:  hankmum [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
I wonder if we aren't looking at either this....Frisco 4-6-4 1066...
https://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0605/fr1066.jpg

or an early version of this...B&O No. 2 Lord Baltimore...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/36797014375
Author:  LVRR2095 [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
hankmum wrote:
I wonder if we aren't looking at either this....Frisco 4-6-4 1066...
https://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0605/fr1066.jpg

or an early version of this...B&O No. 2 Lord Baltimore...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/36797014375

Both of those have Walschaerts valve hear. The drawing shows short frame Baker.
Author:  Frisco1522 [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
Not Frisco. I wonder if it isn't a proposed engine that was never built.
Author:  EJ Berry [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
There's an earlier thread on this. Supposedly it's a W. E. Woodward (Lima) proposal for a branch line 4-6-4. Possibly 1928.

See:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35261&p=198741

Phil Mulligan
Author:  EJ Berry [ Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
I found it!

It's in the May, 1928 issue of Railway and Locomotive Engineering pp 142-145. Article is "Locomotive Design to Reduce Maintenance" by W. E. Woodard, VP of Lima Locomotive Works. The engine drawings are the 4-6-4 and a 2-12-6 (!) which must be seen to be believed. Both seem to have articulated trailing trucks. The drawings are not detailed and do not have dimensions.

If a 2-12-6 is hard to believe, remember in that period Alco built 88 4-12-2's for UP and Baldwin built a watertube-firebox compound 4-10-2 with 350 psi BP.

Here's a link:

https://archive.org/stream/railwaylocom ... 2/mode/1up

BTW the next article describes Baldwin's move to Eddystone.

Phil Mulligan
Author:  rlsteam [ Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
Great work, Phil! I will copy your info in both posts to the man in Germany.
Author:  Steamguy73 [ Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for Source of a 4-6-4 Diagram
This locomotive looks quite similar, (to me at least) to the Illinois Central experimental freight 4-6-4 they rebuilt in the late 30’s from an older Berkshire. Not exactly of course but it fits the mold with the smaller drivers.
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