It appears that a Wagner Palace Car exists in Tampa. The car is apparently named "Ranger" and, if its the "Ranger" built by Wagner as the "Sappho" in 1892, it's an extremely rare "find".

According to "A Century of Pullman Cars Vol II - The Palace Cars" (a photo is on page 372) by Ralph Barger, this car was changed to PV status by Pullman in 1903. It had 5 "Private Rooms"(compartments?) a very large observation lounge, and a kitchen with crew space in the front. There was a dining table in the observation lounge when the car was built.
During WWI it was leased to the US Govt and it was sold to a Chicago dealer in 1921. No history exists after that.

The car evidently ended up on the Royal American Shows train, used by the show's owner. When RAS got another PV in the 1940's, this car was given to an employee who moved it off the rails and converted it into a home in Tampa. It was lifted off its trucks and set on blocks.

Over the years, it received a roof over the original car roof and stucco over the sides, which were scribed metal over wood. Also, a door was cut into one side of the car but that was covered by a shed.

About 2/3 of the interior is original with elaborate woodwork, some of it inlaid. Two oval stained glass windows remain in the sides. The hallway and walls have much of the original woodwaork intact, Inside, it's incrediably well preserved. I found the name "Ranger" painted on a piece of woodwork from the back door of the car.

The car has been offered to Tampa Union Station for preservation. The question is, can anyone on this list offer serious suggestions on funding sources for a project like this? I'm sure this would be a very costly project but the results would be outstanding.


hrvideo@mindspring.com

The question is,
> can anyone on this list offer serious
> suggestions on funding sources for a project
> like this? I'm sure this would be a very
> costly project but the results would be
> outstanding.

It's truly amazing the projects that get approved for TEA-21 grant monies these days. Without editorializing on the ethics of trying to get a vintage passenger car restoration touted as "transportation efficiency"; I'm positive that an experienced grant application writer could get you a huge chunk of the change needed for such a project. If the hog trough is there, you might as well line up for your share.

lner4472@bcpl.net

TEA 21 is an obvious place to start but if the car is endangered or if it is not yet owned by the sponsoring organization you might need faster and less tied up sources first. I would try to get clear title to the car and local commitments lined up to move it to a restoration shop and stabilize it as job one, then a set of specs and estimates of costs to restore it can be developed as a basis for a TEA 21 application.

This is a great find given the history of the Wagner cars to those of us in the southeast and I wish you the best of luck preserving this one.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> TEA 21 is an obvious place to start but if
> the car is endangered or if it is not yet
> owned by the sponsoring organization you
> might need faster and less tied up sources
> first. I would try to get clear title to the
> car and local commitments lined up to move
> it to a restoration shop and stabilize it as
> job one, then a set of specs and estimates
> of costs to restore it can be developed as a
> basis for a TEA 21 application.

> This is a great find given the history of
> the Wagner cars to those of us in the
> southeast and I wish you the best of luck
> preserving this one.

> Dave

I'm pretty sure that the TEA-21 project submittal deadline has already past. There was an article in the Ft. Worth paper earlier this year speculating that no preservation/rehab projects would be funded in the future due to rule changes in the program. Can anyone else shed some light on this?

KES

KES


rrm@texas.net

The TEA-21 deadline was October 26th. The forms stated that you could apply for money for historic restoration projects. Hopefully that is true as we submitted a request for our EL Dining Car project.


Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society
tstuy@eldcps.org

The TEA-21 deadlines vary by state. I would suggest contacting the Florida Department of Transportation which administers the funds in your state. The grant application is actually the second step. For a project to be funded, it must be eligible for listing on the National Historic Register. A railroad car would fall under the "objects" category of listings. These are harder to do. Among other things you need to document the car's history and prove its historic significance. The Florida State Historic Preservation Office (SHPO) can give you the proper contact to start the application.

As might be obvious by now, Stone Consulting handles these regularly.......

Stone Consulting & Design
garyland@stoneconsulting.com

> The TEA-21 deadline was...

Um, which state are we talking about? Each state administers its Transportation Enhancement money on a different schedule. Here in New York State, the 2nd and final* round of TEA-21 TEP proposals was due Nov 1 (excluding certain down-state counties), but you may still have an application window in your state.

* Final, that is, during the current 6 year TEA-21 appropriation. TEA-21 will be reappropriated or there will be a successor bill (like TEA-21 replaced ISTEA).

TMNY
webmaster@tmny.org

What is being called "TEA-21 grants" are actually part of the "Transportation Enhancement" set-aside within the Surface Transportation Program, which is part of the federal-aid highway program authorized by the Transportation Efficiency Act for the 21st Century. There are two subcategories within the Enhancement program that may be of value to railroad museums: historic preservation, and establishment of transportation museums. Your state will have its own rules for these two categories. The handouts are not grants, but are reimbursements of expenses for projects which must be administered as if they were federal-aid highway projects, with all the attendant requirements.

This program expires on Sept. 30, 2003, but is likely to be continued in the subsequent federal highway bill. Amounts apportioned for the STP program will remain available for some time after 2003, so some deadlines may extend beyond the expiry of the authorization, depending on the rates of use of the aid by the states.

Aarne H. Frobom
The Steam Railroading Institute
P. O. Box 665
Owosso, MI 48867-0665

froboma@mdot.state.mi.us

The story about this car find is wonderful, and it is good to hear that the Tampa group is interested in it. I wish the best to them in their efforts.
I would like to raise a rarely asked question (it seems) at most growing museums. "Is the project you are considering more than you can handle?" Not that you shouldn't extend yourselves, but are you over-extended already? Many museums never ask this question, and well-intended acquisitions and proposed restoration projects become nothing more than a sorrowful dream of what could have been, long after Mother Nature has reclaimed what is ultimately hers.
If this wonderful find, cannot get in Tampa a home indoors for a restoration by talented and well-funded individuals, perhaps someone else should take posession of the vehicle.
In that regard, I have heard that the historic Pullman Shops in Chicago are looking for equipment. Could it have a better future there?

I might mention that an excellent example of a Wagner Palace Car can be found at the Shelburne Museum in Vermont. This was last known as Business Car 84 of the Central Vermont Railway. It's full history is somewhat clouded, but it was built about 1899, supposedly given as a gift to the governor of Vermont by William Seward Webb, who was then
president of Wagner, and had aspirations of becoming the next Vermont governor. He was not successful, and the car was eventually inherited by the CV. The nearby Shelburne Farms was one of his summer homes, and the Shelburne Museum was begun by his daughter. The Museum acquired the car about 1961. Now under an attractive Victorian shelter (with CV 4-6-0 No. 220), the car's only outdoor storage was its first 15 years at the Museum. Previously, it had always been kept in careful storage under the brick trainshed at St. Albans, with the keys in the general managers desk. At some point, it was upgraded with a lot more steel and sheathing, but the interior still has its polished elegance. It is unclear if the "Grand Isle" name on the side is correct or not, but it believed to be the car that Calvin Coolidge rode to his inauguration upon President Harding's death. A brief reunion of our "Project 220" group last weekend got the engine and car ready for an upcoming movement -- about one car length south so the sagging track underneath can be rebuilt by a contractor.



bobyar2001@yahoo.com

Mr. Herron, Can you post the picture of the "Ranger" that you mentioned could be found on page 372 of the Wagner book?

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of this book.
Thanks,
Bob Cline

You did notice that this thread was last updated in 2001? A lot of the time with threads going on 20 years the posters have "marked off", but it looks like Jim Herron was last logged on here last December, you might try PMing him, I actually am curious about the Wagner car.

I will have to search for any photos I have of that car. I went through it and videotaped it but I'm not sure where that tape is now. Also, I'll drive by the address where the cars was located to see if it still exists. -Jim Herron

YES, I knew the thread was 20 years old, but if I didn't ask, I would never know.
Thanks,
Bob

Speaking of the recent Wagner Palace Car car discovery.. nice. The Wagner Palace Car Company was located in Buffalo, New York. And here's a bit of History on the Webster Wagner the man .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster_Wagner

Mr. Starr