Railway Preservation News :: View topic - Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work

I know, Kelly, this is so much more fun when I stay out and just let everybody pile on top of me. My own worst enemy, my own best friend....both at the same time.

Kelly, by now, can't we all see that staying silent hasn't helped and either has being active? So where does one strike an even balance?

JohnE.

Dennis -- one acknowledged issue with FOIA reports is that, to get one, you need to be specific about the document being requested.

(b) Filing inspection reports. Within 30 days of completing the 1472 service day inspection, the steam locomotive owner and/or operator shall, for each steam locomotive inspected, file in the place where the steam locomotive is maintained and with the FRA Regional Administrator for that region a report of inspection (FRA Form No. 3), and a completed FRA Form No.4. See appendix C of this part.

I would also like to add that if you are doing a steam locomotive restoration you should take the lead of the fine people restoring Alaska Railroad #557. They have had a FRA inspector come to the shop many times over the years to look over their work. This is not a official inspection but just a friendly visit. Even if you have to pay the inspector it's better to catch these problems earlier then later.

Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
I am starting a new discussion because I don't want this to get lost in the mud slinging sure to come in the discussion of K&T 14. One thing that caught my eye in that discussion were photos of the work which Matt Austin obtained from the FRA through a Freedom of Information Act request. I, for one, never realized that FRA inspection reports included photos, but indeed even the inspection report without photos would be enlightening. Many people preach that organizations should do due diligence before hiring a contractor to work on their boiler, but appearantly many groups do not. They must go by word-of-mouth, but as can be seen in the K&T 14 discussion, every contractor seems to have its fans, so this may or may not yeild an objective answer. Since any contract for boiler repair is going to result in an FRA inspection, reading those reports should give a critical analysis of their work, and some indication how the FRA views the quality. But, this raises the question how one finds these reports, and how does one make the request to obtain them? Are they indexed by date, company, or contractor's name? How would a group approach this? Enlighten me.

Author:	Overmod [ Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
Start here: https://railroads.dot.gov/freedom-information-act-foia That might in fact be all you need to answer your question. Mr. Austin would already know anything else appropriate, and he might have some comments on how to avoid problems and get around any COVID-19-related issues.

Author:	Robert Opal [ Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
Hi Dennis. Remember me? It's been a long time. I think we're both a lot older. Yes, FRA inspection reports very often include photos of the claimed violations, where the violation involves something that can be seen in a photo (like track or equipment violations). I've had to deal with hundreds (maybe thousands) of these in FRA settlement conferences in my years in the industry. Of course, sometimes the photo will show there isn't a violation.

Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
Hi Bob, Yeah I do. I've caught your run on the car line several times when I've been out incognito with the grand kids. I always like your car stop talk; you always do a good job of relating the technology to a greater social context. The reason I started this discussion was to hopefully have some folks who are familiar with the FRA archives chime in with a road map to find these boiler inspection reports; I've tried from the link provided above and am not having much luck. Perhaps my research skills aren't quite up to the task. It seems to me accessing inspection reports would be an excellent way to get an unbiased opinion of a potential contractor's work before committing to a contract.

Author:	Overmod [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
Dennis -- one acknowledged issue with FOIA reports is that, to get one, you need to be specific about the document being requested. To my knowledge there is no 'search engine' that logs FRA Part 230 boiler inspections, although I suspect they follow a syntax at least similar to accident reports that might be a guide. I wouldn't hesitate to contact the indicated FOIA Public Liaison at FRA, Ms. Regina Taylor-Santiago, at [url]FRAFOIALiaison@dot.gov[/url] "for any further assistance and to discuss any aspect of your request." Even if she is not directly knowledgeable on how to find boiler-inspection record data, I suspect she can find out -- and then tell you -- who can or does know, unless there are perceived concerns of confidentiality (which were baked into the original FOIA procedure, as you may have recognized). It would not surprise me to find that FRA inspection reports become a matter of public record, just as actual accident reports are. Since they are, or ought to be, matters of objective fact, there should be no "confidentiality" aspect to them once any time limits given for quiet remediation of defects have passed.

Railway Preservation News https://www.rypn.org/forums/

Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45070	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Wasatch RR Cont [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
Dennis, When you make one FOIA request, you will want to follow it up with a few more. Here is why. I can tell you first hand that FRA has told me ....."That document does not exist..." But, magically in the third or fourth request via FOIA, you will find what you are looking for. By the way, if you are looking for all of the reports on me, which many others have done already, you will need to search by railroad, not by Wasatch Railroad Cont or my name. Just helping you make the search for dirt on me easier. Once you find all of the negative reports on me specifically, please post them on RYPN so all of can see them. Do you want to know how many there are? I'll tell if you ask. Kindly, JohnE. Need my contact info? Dennis, I'll help you with the FOIA requests. Also, Jason S and David Wilkins are really good at it, so is Matt Austin. All of them will help you too. I have also contacted the moderators to make sure that once you get the reports, they will make a special portion of the forum where you can post them. Wait...that page is up, it is called the Interchange. Score 32 to 0

Author:	Wasatch RR Cont [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
I know, Kelly, this is so much more fun when I stay out and just let everybody pile on top of me. My own worst enemy, my own best friend....both at the same time. Kelly, by now, can't we all see that staying silent hasn't helped and either has being active? So where does one strike an even balance? JohnE.

Author:	bbaker [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
Wasatch RR Cont wrote: I know, Kelly, this is so much more fun when I stay out and just let everybody pile on top of me. My own worst enemy, my own best friend....both at the same time. Kelly, by now, can't we all see that staying silent hasn't helped and either has being active? So where does one strike an even balance? JohnE. I have zero opinions on the situation from which all of the current "commotion" on RYPN stems. But, a word of advice... A single, well-thought out, detailed statement that has been carefully crafted usually turns out better than frequent hastily-written responses. Regardless of whether I am right or wrong in a situation, if I don't take my time, collect my thoughts, and re-read/proof-read something I write a few times over, things often don't end well upon publishing. Best wishes.

Author:	Chris Webster [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
Overmod wrote: Start here: https://railroads.dot.gov/freedom-information-act-foia Overmod wrote: Dennis -- one acknowledged issue with FOIA reports is that, to get one, you need to be specific about the document being requested. Good advice Overmod! I'll add that FRA's FOIA team is located within the US DOT's headquarters building in Washington, DC while the inspection reports should be in FRA's Regional Offices. That is because 49 CFR § 230.17 requires that the inspection reports be filed with FRA's Regional Administrators: Quote: (b) Filing inspection reports. Within 30 days of completing the 1472 service day inspection, the steam locomotive owner and/or operator shall, for each steam locomotive inspected, file in the place where the steam locomotive is maintained and with the FRA Regional Administrator for that region a report of inspection (FRA Form No. 3), and a completed FRA Form No.4. See appendix C of this part. I would mention §230.17(b) in the FOIA request, for example: "All Reports of Inspection, FRA Forms No. 3 and FRA Forms No. 4 for (description of locomotive) in (name of state) that 49 §230.17(b) requires be filed with the FRA Regional Administrator." That way, the FOIA team in DC will know to send the request onto the appropriate FRA regional office.

Author:	Tom F [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
The search engine on the FRA website is really bad. You will rarely find what you are looking for. Documents I know are there many times are not found on the FRA website by searching. It is much better to do a search in Google with the keywords "FRA report" Railroad name, location, and date. Recently I was searching for the accident report on the Big Boy #4005 at Red Deseret, Wyoming. It was in there, but buried into files which I would never find by searching the site. Best advice I have is to be a specific as possible. If you know the month and year you can narrow a lot of stuff down to a single page of files. They actually have thousands of reports dating a long way back to the steam era. Many interesting accident reads. Also remember that the FRA works closely with the Department of Transportation (DOT). Many times the papers you are looking for are in the DOT database which is far more functional then the FRA website. I would also like to add that if you are doing a steam locomotive restoration you should take the lead of the fine people restoring Alaska Railroad #557. They have had a FRA inspector come to the shop many times over the years to look over their work. This is not a official inspection but just a friendly visit. Even if you have to pay the inspector it's better to catch these problems earlier then later.

Author:	Crescent-Zephyr [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Checking a potential boiler contractor's past work
Tom F wrote: I would also like to add that if you are doing a steam locomotive restoration you should take the lead of the fine people restoring Alaska Railroad #557. They have had a FRA inspector come to the shop many times over the years to look over their work. This is not a official inspection but just a friendly visit. Even if you have to pay the inspector it's better to catch these problems earlier then later. They also regularly post photos, progress reports, etc. Doesn’t seem like they have anything to hide or censor.

Page 1 of 1	All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/