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St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45106		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  J3a-614 [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
There were some comments about this car in a photo that appeared in Pre-Depression Era Railroad Modelers, a Facebook site. The photo in question showed the 1879-built No. 1320 next to a new 1920s single sheathed car, showcasing the progress that had been made in 50 or so years.

Image

The most interesting comment referred to this car still being in existence, and that lead me to looking around.

And the car is around, at the Mill City Museum in Minneapolis, Minn.

https://www.facebook.com/millcitymuseum ... 467338680/

Image

Further looking uncovered what might be most of interest here, a document on the preservation of the car, taking more of a conservation approach rather than a restoration.

https://www.mnhs.org/preserve/conservat ... ox_car.pdf

Have fun!!
Author:  SD70dude [ Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Nice to see that it is kept indoors in a relatively climate controlled environment, which allows them to maintain it in 'as received' condition.

Also interesting to see that it has air brakes and link-and-pin couplers.
Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Was the St. Paul & Pacific a railroad that the Great Northern absorbed?

Les
Author:  SD70dude [ Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
It predates both the Great Northern and Northern Pacific.

After years of going nowhere under both local and NP ownership, it was bought out of bankruptcy by Jim Hill in partnership with Norman Kittson, Donald Smith, and George Stephen. This was their first venture into railroading, these same men would go on to build the Canadian Pacific a few years later.

The StP&P was attractive due to its large land grants, and was soon making large profits for its new owners. It was reorganized into the St. Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba in 1879, at which point the StP&P name ceased to be used.

Hill left the CP project before its completion, and started what would become the Great Northern. His other railroad holdings were operated in concert with GN, and were eventually merged into it years later
Author:  Brian Norden [ Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Les Beckman wrote:
Was the St. Paul & Pacific a railroad that the Great Northern absorbed?
Yes,

Appears to have a complex history before James J. Hill got involved.

I found a write-up on Wikipedia, but I can't get a link to work.
Author:  J3a-614 [ Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Brian Norden wrote:
I found a write-up on Wikipedia, but I can't get a link to work.


Is this what you found, and does it work now? (I hope the answer is yes to both!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Pau ... c_Railroad
Author:  Bad Order [ Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
When I see old cars like this, with the brake rigging/hoses/retainer valve, it makes me curious if the brake system would still function if we were able to connect it to an air supply and charge it up (if all the plumbing was still intact). How neat that would be~ 140+ year old car brake system still operable!
Author:  PMC [ Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Hill's St Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba Railway office car Manitoba (Pullman 1880) exists at Gopher State Railway Museum. While the exterior is heavily modified (I would bet they will be happy it is when they finally remove the cocoon), the interior seems intact.
http://gsrm.org/office_car_manitoba

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Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
SD70dude wrote:
Nice to see that it is kept indoors in a relatively climate controlled environment, which allows them to maintain it in 'as received' condition.


Yeah, including preserving the plywood inner roof :-( Since boxcars don't normally have a "window end", I get the feeling they had no clue what they were looking at.
Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
I just noticed the lettering on the boxcar "Built by Haskell & Barker 1879" which is neat. But then I looked at the photo with the 1920's single sheathed wood boxcar and the lettering has obviously been repainted. Looks like the old photo shows more of an explanation of the builder. Can anyone read it? Also on the repaint, the "dot" at the end of PACIFIC was left off. Amazing that this car survived from 1879 to the 1920's photo and then that it was preserved after that. Preserved where? Was she paired with the old 4-4-0 long displayed at the St. Paul Union Depot or someplace else? Just amazing to me that she has survived.

Les
Author:  Ron Travis [ Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Les Beckman wrote:
I just noticed the lettering on the boxcar "Built by Haskell & Barker 1879" which is neat. But then I looked at the photo with the 1920's single sheathed wood boxcar and the lettering has obviously been repainted. Looks like the old photo shows more of an explanation of the builder. Can anyone read it? Also on the repaint, the "dot" at the end of PACIFIC was left off.
Les


It is interesting that they omitted the period after the word “Pacific” in the company name. Maybe they thought they were correcting a typo. Actually, placing a period after the last word in a company name was very popular back in that era. If you look for it in old photos, it was quite common then, but non-existent in today’s practice. I find no reference to the practice either then or now. But in any case, it is an interesting curiosity, and I believe the period belongs on the restored car.
Author:  Overmod [ Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Quote:
"I just noticed the lettering on the boxcar "Built by Haskell & Barker 1879" which is neat ... Looks like the old photo shows more of an explanation of the builder. Can anyone read it?"
The image as posted here is too pixilated to read properly, although there may be someone who can 'process' it better.

However, the original photograph that was scanned to the originating Facebook page was likely at higher effective resolution, and if it were rescanned to a higher resolution than that for cost-effective posting might be easily read, or provided here. Does anyone have the interest in contacting the source and asking about this?
Author:  Paul D [ Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Dennis Storzek wrote:
SD70dude wrote:
Nice to see that it is kept indoors in a relatively climate controlled environment, which allows them to maintain it in 'as received' condition.


Yeah, including preserving the plywood inner roof :-( Since boxcars don't normally have a "window end", I get the feeling they had no clue what they were looking at.


I seriously wonder how many people still know what a lumber door was and why it was required on older boxcars.
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Paul D wrote:

I seriously wonder how many people still know what a lumber door was and why it was required on older boxcars.


I thought that was the purpose of museums, to educate people.
Author:  Overmod [ Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: St. Paul & Pacific Box Car No. 1320
Quote:
"I seriously wonder how many people still know what a lumber door was and why it was required on older boxcars."

The same could be said for the particular arrangements and operating procedures behind that "automobile service" aspect of the boxcar that was so modern in the pictured shot...

And yes, in both cases this is an excuse for a good museum to bring in all sorts of wider, and fascinating, context...
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