You're Not Interested In Politics, But Politics Is Interested in You-or more accurately all of us.

The TL; DR you may wish to have your road, museum or project free of politics and its effects. That world doesn't exist. You must operate in a realm where political intrusions are frequent, unexpected in magnitude, direction or duration and require the wisdom of Solomon to navigate.


https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022 ... -new-york/

So let's consider this idea of the Feeble Snow with a critical eye, devoid of the normal foam based enthusiasm.

First of all is it "high speed"? The article mentions replacing the existing "sleepers" to increase the speed to 80mph. Now as somebody whose actually traversed the line from Slateford to Scranton, it most definitely isn't going to be 80mph throughout the line. East of Moscow (MP120), Bridge 60 is (MP134) there's a couple of straight flat miles; no anticipable stops, so sure. I'm guessing in New Jersey there's be some raceways but no..


Even at an average speed of 65mph, you are still looking at a 2 plus hour trip, but there's going to have to be stops in NJ and the Stroudsburg area maybe Tobyhanna as well, so as no to forego butts-in-seats revenue. This doesn't account for the times there's two feet of snow on the ground. This isn't going to be like the trip from Harrisburg to Philly, flat straight and well ridden due to the significance of the two cities, commercially and governmentally.

But people already have this mass transit option; Martz bus lines. For $59, you can get from Scranton to New York five times a day. Unless multiple busses are leaving for each departure, where's the ridership?

In an era of "remote work"; this makes even less sense than it did even three years ago; I have a friend who works remotely in Danville PA, from South Carolina. If the railroads conquered distance, the internet makes it irrelevant.

In an era of ever expanding deficits; where the interest on the debt may soon "crowd out" things like the military and other normal governmental provisions, we don't "have the money" for personal vanity projects to serve as modern pyramids.

And then there's the elephant in the room, Joe gives brief mention to "excursions". While he skipped out on Steamtown when he launched his spending crusade, using the ECTM as a backdrop, how has the federal government done with the "nation's" operating railroad museum? It's been a steady decline since it lost Joe McDade's patronage. From two and sometimes three operating locomotives running multiple days per week, there is now one, that has had multiple days cancelled due to crew availability. It never came close to the wild estimates (speculations) of 500,000 visitors. If you want operating mainline steam, you need to talk to the folks in Port Clinton. Assuming this ever gets off the ground, how will Steamtown ever run on a line where scheduled passenger traffic can't afford the possibility of a mechanical failure by antiques?

In short, there really isn't the need for this project. But dammit, if there's political will, we'll spend money, because politicians know attaching their name to palatial and the ostentatious is what gets them favorable mention by a chattering class that finds government spending the measure of political success. The project can be useless, wasteful, but if it's big, it's creditworthy. Nobody is mentioned favorably for not spending money or building some project.

So here we are, rapidly coming up on 31.27 TRILLION dollars as of the wee hours of 11/10/2022. It crossed 1 trillion 0ctober 22, 1981. For those that keep track; that's a compound annual growth rate of 8.74% year in and year out over 41 years and a few days.

There are effects to all this debt; and politicians are always ready to spend MOAR...of course. It's not their money. Most are thoroughly unacquainted with productive work, but lavish praise on each other for "public service".

How very true.

The Scranton, PA metropolitan area has a population of 562,000. For comparison to something that I am familiar with, the Youngstown, OH metropolitan area has a population of 540,000 people. Both are experiencing population declines although Scranton is not declining as fast as we are. Neither of these areas have enough population density to justify high speed rail. While Youngstown does serve somewhat as a bedroom community for those working in Cleveland and Pittsburgh, that commute is at most an hour and twenty minutes city to city vs. New York to Scranton being two hours plus with HSR. I don't see too many NYC commuters wanting to live as far out as Scranton.

To Chris Webster and Emmo, yes this thread is related to preservation. The subject is explicitly the former DL&W between Scranton and New York and whether or not rebuilding it for HSR makes sense. Now if Superheater was talking about building an interstate highway, that would not be permitted as it is not the same mode. But discussing the reactivation/upgrade of an historic corridor certainly falls within the realm of preservation.

Again, if this thread does not interest you, you don't have to participate. The exercise of one poster's free speech in no way diminishes yours, and does not infringe on some hypothetical FRA official's ability to participate in other threads that they may find of interest. This concept of discussion forum "cross contamination" is nonsensical.

Let’s stay out of party politics, but look at the money given to the military to develop “pie in the sky” airplanes and other weapons. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to keep up to date, but some of their ideas are too hard to build and maintain to be worth it, if they work at all!

Superheater's post earns an A + IMHO as it addresses all of the many tangents encompassed in this short Britebart article.

Joe Biden loves to wax poetic about his love for his birthplace Scranton and how much he enjoys his repeated visits there.

The subject of restoring passenger rail service from NY/NJ to Scranton has been " studied" to death over the last 30 years and has been a gift to the consultants who write these studies. The estimated cost of restoring the line to 79 mph standards has gone from approx. $ 65 million in 1985 to approx. $ 1.4 billion ( yes billion) in 2021.

There are lots and lots of dollars within the 2 recently passed bills that could be labeled " appropriate" if spent on doing this so be careful of saying it will never happen.

It will be interesting to see over the next 12-18 months to see if those that are wanting this to happen can channel Biden's fondness for Scranton into the mega bucks needed to make this a reality.

I've been a betting man all my life and I'd be at a loss to handicap this one. So I'll go with the universally used default position and say it's 50/50.

Never say never also comes to mind.

Again, thank you Superheater for an excellent summary of the key points.

Interesting times. Ross Rowland

I had taken a deep look into the project many years ago, 2005 or 2006 when NJT had produced one of its many studies.

At the time the project cost was expected to be $350 million and would benefit 2,800 riders per day in 2025.

My thought was, "Why not give those potential riders the $125,000 each (350 mil / 2800) to get a home closer to their jobs?"

I can see service should going a few miles west of the Water Gap and that's it. A few places to install a giant park / ride facility. Going to Scranton will be a big money loser and the ridership just isn't there. Most PA residents are not going to NYC for employment. They are going to several northern NJ counties.

As much of our family was in Wilkes-Barre:

Part of the argument was that much of the 'new bedroom community' construction for the additional demand would come in the Poconos, where a commuting 'drive' to catch a train would be little different from established patterns in Connecticut, southeast Pennsylvania, and northwest New Jersey. I'm not saying 'build it and they will come' -- but I think larger numbers than expected would, ESPECIALLY in winter when 80 in particular is a misery.

The concern I'd have is with expedient pathing east of where the Cutoff ends, where the Amtrak service would have to compete with NJT and then NJT-plus-NEC traffic to get into Manhattan, and it would have to have high priority for the Scranton 'trick' to work. Some of this will be improved after Gateway-lite is finished and the two North River Tunnels are remediated, but not before.

As with the Avelia Liberty trains -- I'd much rather see a restored Scranton service run with more amenities than at higher overall speed. There might finally be a market for tilting trains here, but I rather doubt anything more than PRIIA ought to be involved, and all that equipment is spec'd for 125mph which is as high as I'd expect that market ever to involve. What they'd need is longer seat tracking, lots of USB outlets, good high-speed broadband, 'hover seats' and some of the other things that enlightened bus lines are starting to bring into the mix.

And bring back the bar cars, even if their operation has to be outsourced. I'd bring back the 'clubs', too, as long as they cover their own equipment acquisition and above-the-rail cost...

It's not often I agree with Superheater, but this is one situation where he is spot on. Service to Scranton would be a colossal waste of money. Who is going to spend four hours a day commuting to and from work?

The sensible thing to do would be to run express buses from Scranton (and Wilkes-Barre) down I-380 and I-80 to a parking lot at Delaware Water Gap or a new station nearby to provide an across-the-platform connection to the train. No need to try to make time through the Poconos. The folks who commute to New York mostly live east of I-380 anyway, and they would make up most of the riders, I should think.

Let me introduce you to the Washington DC metro area.

The typical problems of suburban/exurban commuting to "downtown" or major satellite locations (Silver Spring, Chevy Chase, Herndon, Springfield, etc.) is exacerbated by the propensity of Federal agencies and their related corporate partners to suddenly reassign high-paying administrative jobs on a whim. I have known numerous individuals who, to give actual examples, bought affordable housing (or in areas with good schools) expecting to finish out their careers at a place like Rockville (just NW of DC), Fort Meade (between Baltimore and Annapolis on the old B&A), or Columbia, and suddenly found themselves having to work in Waldorf, Fort Belvoir (Va., south of the Beltway), or Herndon (way west of DC). This can turn one hour one-way to three hours in rush-hour traffic. Some quit; some endured the torture for the last couple years until retirement or pension; etc.
And in none of those examples I know save one was there an acceptable transit option. The one went from a car to a MARC train to Washington Union to a walkable hike to the office, to a car/MARC trai, then transfer to a VRE train that went to a stop that had an employee shuttle to Fort Belvoir.

That's fine, I'll just report it again.

Also calling out people by name that report posts? That's shitty.

You're free to start your own rail preservation forum and attract your own readers, mate.

I'd rather half-heartedly concur with Brother Rowlands, Gears, etc. than put up with sanctimonious moderators eager and anxious to kill posts.

"Off-topic" should mean looking out for posts from people claiming to have "$45-an-hour jobs available, click link below for information" or "Info on the REAL Russian conspiracies!!!" or the latest "Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?" promo.

"See the løveli lakes...... The wøndërful telephøne system...... And mäni interesting furry animals......."

Agreed 100%. Totally uncalled for. This definitely seems off topic to me, especially since it began with a political statement.

As for the topic of the thread… I’m very glad to see my tax dollars going to the restoration of this line… would love to ride a train to Scranton one day!

Oh there's a surprise. Newsflash it won't be your tax dollars, it will be the tax dollars of the unborn and their unborn. You don't get to designate your taxes, sorry. Politicians of all parties exist to spend your money in ways they see fit, not according to your preferences. If you want to spend your money for a train ride; well you'll have to be more militant about maintaining it as your money; of course I don't see that happening as you give every indication of thinking the government is giant cornucopia that can give every little girl a pony (or an iron horse) just because she wants one, golly gee.

Now a couple other things:

1.) I disagree with renaming the post. Like the notes are an integral part of financial statements, the title is part of the post, if cinematographers can object to the colorization of B&W classics; I can object to the adulteration and dilution on my work. This post was only using this project as a microcosm of a bigger set of issues.

2.) It’s not going to appease Squad Karen who wants to complain to the manager about propriety with potty mouth.

Karens: If you dislike being called Karen, then stop asking to talk to the manager-it’s the defining feature of Karenism. Also stop attempting to remain anonymous because you lack the testicular fortitude to air your grievances publicly, and accept criticism and debate. If you still don't like Karen, then I'll resume using a certain ICD-10 code.


Oh, If we’re going to down the scatological road, quit being something excreted from a cloaca.

As an enthusiast of rail preservation, rail transportation, and the DL&W in particular this project has always been one that gets my attention.

In general I have a hard time reconciling the Fed raising rates to supposedly decrease liquidity and limit inflation while the legislature and executive branch continue to inject liquidity into the system by continued and growing deficit spending. I also can not see designing and building transportation systems based on legacy travel patterns. That said, in a global environment of finite resources (this is a zero sum game) the economy that can move people, raw materials, and finished goods the most efficiently will have a distinct advantage going forward.

About twenty years ago I discussed the reactivation of the cutoff with a gentleman in my community who was a rail enthusiast and who worked at a fairly high level for NJ Transit on the bus side of things. At the time he told me that the internal dialogue was exactly as some have discussed here. In the event that the private bus lines were not adequately meeting the demand the most economically viable and sensible approach would be for Transit to provide bus service.

That being said, if the line was to be brought up to US high speed standards (125 mph or so but preferably faster), I may support it if it were part of the private construction of high-speed service between Chicago and NYC city centers.

As for things like bar, dining, and different classes of service, I'd look to the Brightline model but with several levels of dining options given the longer time on the train. All the major league sports teams have long ago realized the advantages of selling to the captive market of ticket holders at the events yet commuter rail and Amtrak have largely gone in the opposite direction with this. Too much government-think and not enough free enterprise perhaps?

I was going to stay out of this topic since I’m not familiar with all the machinations, but here’s my thoughts/experiences: I’m intimately familiar with two-plus hour commutes each way having lived many years in LA. That got to be tough over the years. I can’t see many people, especially those married with children, opting for an even longer commute via public transportation even if it was door to door.

There’s a reason why the cut-off was taken up. Spending a gazillion dollars hoping someone might ride on it doesn’t make sense or cents. Put the money into Amtrak if you want to play trains.

That’s all I got.