Received the following today (underline is mine), but I haven't seen the latest TSA communications. Anyone seen this that can share?

I think all of D&S equipment is open air / open window.

I wondered if that was it, but I thought that a couple of their cars normally operated with windows closed. If they open, that certainly simplifies the mask issue for the railroad.

Thanks....

If ANYONE has a statement from the TSA that SD 1582/84-21-0A no longer applies to heritage/tourist railroads and/or open-air conveyances, I would deeply appreciate seeing it.

As of this writing, nothing amending SD 1582/84-21-0A has been published on: https://www.tsa.gov/coronavirus

Well as late on 6/25/2021 that is NOT on the D&S website:
https://www.durangotrain.com/covid-19-faqs-and-rebooking-information/


Down the road at the C&TS:
https://cumbrestoltec.com/schedule/

I have ridden C&TS in the last month and was never asked to put a mask on outside of the giftshop.

Was that the crew choosing not enforce it?

I posted this on another thread, but it's relevant here as well. An underlying issue may that some tourist roads may not understand the relationship between Federal and State rules (see final paragraph). State rules may not require masks on trains (tourist or otherwise) but Federal rules do, and the Federal rules govern.

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I think the Federal orders are pretty clear. If you are providing transportation for the public (in a train, airplane, bus, ride share, or pretty much anything else other than a private auto), the masking requirements apply to your passengers. I've seen some arguments that the mandate shouldn't apply because tourist railroads aren't "common carriers". But there's nothing in the Federal orders that limits the Federal masking mandates to "common carriers". Tourist railroads hold themselves out to provide rides ("transportation") to the general public, and that's all that's relevant. Further, many tourist railroads, while not common carriers, are still considered "railroads" subject to Federal railroad regulation.

The one exception to this relevant to tourist roads is that, under CDC guidelines, masking is NOT required for passengers in "outdoor areas of a conveyance (like on a ferry or the top deck of a bus)". Presumably, this exception would apply to an open car on a tourist road (like an open gondola with or without seats). But I wouldn't expect TSA would apply this exception to an enclosed car just because it had windows that open.

I think one of the areas of confusion here is that the relationship between State and Federal law may not be fully understood. Many States have relaxed their masking mandates and, under these State requirements at least, masking would no longer be required on tourist trains. But Federal requirements trump (no relation to "Trump") inconsistent State requirements. So, if State requirements don't require masking on tourist trains, but Federal requirements do, the Federal requirements govern.

Clear as mud?

The TSA seems to be providing some verbal "guidance".

I was at a tourist line last week, and noticed that the only people who appeared to be wearing masks were the crew. When I inquired to someone there with authority, I was told that after a few heated exchanges with the public that almost became physical, they called the TSA for guidance. The TSA agent told this group that as long as the RR has the Directive info clearly posted (on-site and on social media), and maybe advise verbally to customers (we tried to tell you...), then the group would be clear of liability for fines, and any individual (passenger) who chose not to wear a mask would be subject to personal fine IF a TSA agent observed this individual and chose to take exception to it.

Our group's ride is a completely open-air, outdoor excursion. This was discussed at our group's last Board meeting, and it was decided that until we can get guidance in writing, or the Directive is modified, the policy will remain "No Mask-No Ride". We have lost a few potential customers because of this, but there isn't much we can do. We even provide masks free-of-charge for persons that don't have any.

I can tell you that having been on numerous excursion operations over the past 2 weeks, masks were required on only one operation, and it had all open cars or cars with open windows (one car had sealed windows but it wasn't being used). The others had open cars and open-windowed cars and masks were not even mentioned. A few folks wore them.

These were some very large and well-know operations, plus a few small ones. I talked to most of them and they cited the TSA's open air policy. One cited a state official's understanding and eplanation of the current policy.

As would any of us working trains.
It was well over 100 degrees not long ago on the RR I work on (thankfully I wasn't scheduled that weekend), and the brakeman on that day said there were passengers almost passing out the hottest of those days from the masks.
Don't get me wrong, I strongly support preventative measures and think the masks were a good idea. But when I'm well away from anyone (like when I'm on the ground during a switching move), yeah, the mask will usually come off.

This reminds me of a practice from a number of years ago by a federal agency. They would not put rulings or interpretations in writing. I was told by one of their upper administrators that they didn't want the legal liability to come back to them, or have companies cite the government agency as the source or approving agency of any practices. They would tell you what was wrong, but not what was right.

This changed some when they were instructed to put their enforcement manuals on their website, but most things beyond that remained verbal, or pretty broad without clear meanings or guidance.

That is why, if anyone actual gets something in writing, or a clear verbal set of instructions, please share it!

In response to bn0tolbisub's note of 7/12, the advice that TSA reportedly gave is actually pretty consistent with what (at least from my observations) is going on with public transit and commuter rail.

I ride both CTA and Metra in the Chicago area with some frequency. Both agencies have posters in their cars and rail cars advising of face mask requirements and potential penalties for violators, and make periodic announcements of face mask requirements over their PA systems. But there is no "face mask gestapo" patrolling the vehicles to confront non complying passengers and force them to comply or be cast off the train into the darkness where there is but wailing and gnashing of teeth. The closest thing to this I've seen is that Metra trainman, when they see a non complying passenger, will politely ask the passenger to comply. But they won't do anything to force a non complying passenger to comply (my understanding is that they've been told to avoid any confrontation like this). CTA really can't do even this on their rapid transit system, since they don't normally have train service personnel in their rail cars (just the motorman who stays in the cab of the front car).

I also happen to be a long time member of IRM and frequently operate trains there. Right now, we're in the middle of a two weekend Thomas event. We're essentially following the Metra model for face mask requirements. The one big difference is that our passenger service personnel have a supply of facemasks which they will offer (for free) to any passenger who didn't bring their own (I handed out several last weekend). That goes beyond the Metra model. I can't imagine that TSA, FRA or any other government agency would take any exception to this approach.

Just to make sure all the information is available to everyone regarding this topic.

The CDC guidance can be found here: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... ation.html

I have attached EO No. 32 for reference. I have also attached the latest guidance from FRA regarding EO No. 32 and the CDC guidance.

From my understanding, an open steam locomotive cab or open cars would be considered “outdoors”. However, cars with all windows open wouldn’t be “outdoors.”

TSA may or may not have a more relaxed interpretation in some areas and enforcement discretion may be used.

MD Ramsey