In a small town,MSA Population 184,700, would a completely new, grass roots, steam tourtist operation succeed with the present state of the US?

I know there are a million variables to this, and I know there are lines like Heber that succeed, but if you could start Heber up today from scratch, would it work??

thanks
Alan

adofmsu@aol.com

I think you answered your own question, Alan--there are a million variables to this. It's not possible to give an answer without getting down to brass tacks: location, capital start-up costs, size of potential market within driving distance, etc. You have to think about it like a business--without knowing all that and a lot more, there's know way to have an opinion as to feasability of the proposed business plan.

In general though, given the current insurance premium crisis among other factors I would say across the board that it is not a good year to start a new tourist railroad anywhere. It would be hard to come up with a feasible and persuasive business plan, but I suppose stranger thaings have happened.

eledbetter@rypn.org

In addition to what Erik had to say, I would include "maybe."

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

thanks for the responses.

adofmsu@aol.com

There have been a lot of tourist railroads in this country since the 1950s when they started attracting vacationers. Some lasted only a year or two others such as the Strasburg RR or the Tweetsie RR have been around for decades.

I suggest that a narrow gauge line powered by small steam engines might be able to make a go of ot if it is in a good location.

You need to have more than just trains; the vacationers will go to an established area and then ride a train when they get there. There are not enough people out there that riding trains is a primary vacation destination.here has to be something and then a train ride. Another long running line is the Black Hills Central which is near the Presidential Monument in the Black hills. Good Luck with your plan!

Ted miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Are we assuming it is a for profit operation, or could it be an economic development engine for a region? Success is defined differently depending on the purpose. Strasburg is successful if it makes more than it costs. SAM is successful if it brings many more dollars from other places into its area than its operating subsidy costs Georgia.

Not that they are tracking this sort of information to my knowledge. I have asked but gotten no response.

One strategy requires some tourism available to exploit, one is designed to create tourism to exploit. I love this business!

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Ohio Central started from nothing and seems to have done well.....

A good idea of tourist railroads that have come and gone can be had by comparing some older issues of the Steam Passenger Directory to the newer issues..

Alan Levy

alanl759@aol.com

Alan:

Location and proximity to existing tourism flows are more important than most other issues. I can sell a mediocre operation in a good location but can not save a scenic operation with poor access which is off the beaten path.

If you want more of my thoughts contact me by email.

Gary

Stone Consulting & Design
garylandrio@stoneconsulting.com

> Ohio Central started from nothing and seems
> to have done well.....

That's hardly the case at all. Ohio Central is not a steam tourist railroad and it didn't "start from nothing." It started as a regional freight railroad made up of many parts of former Class ! railroad lines. It first became successful as a freight railroad, then set up a small steam operation on the side.

The railroad couldn't survive a week on income from steam operations alone.

> The railroad couldn't survive a week on
> income from steam operations alone.

Right on!
The tourist steam segment does however fulfill the three basic requirements:
LOCATION
LOCATION
LOCATION

You would have to generate one heck of a lot of riders to come close to what's invested in those steamers ... but then again running the steam as a spin-off of successful freight operations may not be such a bad idea ????


lamontdc@adelphia.net

but then again running
> the steam as a spin-off of successful
> freight operations may not be such a bad
> idea ????

Thats what the Tarantula Train is on the FW&W. But the steam is not going too well I understand.


adofmsu@aol.com

Thanks for all your responses.
I ask this because like many of you Id like to start or have a steam operation in my town. Unfortunately for me there just isnt anything near me. TSRR is 4 hours away, and while Ive gone up there many times its just unrealistic that I will get much more involved. Unless your at most 2 or 3 hours away, you waist more time driving than being there. The only other way is to move to presently operating steam, which at this time
unrealistic also.

I think thats how these small groups get started, unfortunately most fail. Even the Big Easy Steam train in New Orleans failed, and thats was 3.5 hours away.

Sure I have an chronic desire to work on a steam crew but at the same time I realize that I dont have the means to start one.
Alan

adofmsu@aol.com

Alan;

Then go to where the steam trains are on your off time - eg, vacation time. (alternatively, go and work at one, but I won't discuss that here)

I know people who travel the atlantic to work in Europe on various lines. (3 people and counting) I travel to the USA a couple of times per year, and currently volunteer at 2 places.

Quite a few sites will have a place to stay for volunteers - say an old caboose or a sleeping car. You can even bring along a sleeping bag and mat and camp on a floor, so long as there is a place to wash up.

So long as you go with the attitude "I am here to help, and will do anything, and will not cost you one cent", the people at the organizations will (usually) make you feel at home. And, yes, they will ask you to do anything. I have yet to scrub toilets, but have installed a couple. :-)

One of the "Brits" in our group takes his bicycle to the airport, flies to London/Gatwick airport, and bikes to the Bluebell, and stays in a sleeping car. Because he books charter flights about 6 months in advance, it costs him *very* little for a 2 week vacation.

John Stewart
Ottawa.

> Sure I have an chronic desire to work on a
> steam crew but at the same time I realize
> that I dont have the means to start one.
> Alan


Shay 3289
freewrl-1@rogers.com

There Is A Way To Go About This Issue That Is In Play On Many Tourist Railroads. I Live Near The Wanamkaer, Kempton & Southern Stean Railroad. The Railroad Is Only 4 Miles In Length! It Is A For-Profit Company That Is Run By All Volunteers. There Isn't Any Large Attractions Near The Railroad, And It Is Out In The Middle Of Nowhere. The Railroad Has 4 Small Locomotives And Some Coaches. All The Money That Is Made As Profit Is Used To Pay For The Railroads Expenses. It Pays Taxes, And Never Has Asked For A Federal Grant! This Is Shown In That The Railroad Is Celebrating Its 40th Anivversary This Year! So, Yes It Could Happen, But It Takes A Lot Of Dedicated People In Your Area! It Also Takes A Lot Of Money! I Would Say That Starting A Club And Forming A Plan Would Be Your Best Bet.
I Hope This Gives You Some Ideas,
Aaron Berger

norfolk_western_611@hotmail.com

I won't presume to know any thing but I do have a few ideas on the subject.....right or wrong here they are

1st Most riders are Momma and little Johnny come to ride the choo choo.......

2nd with this in mind, consider the ride you want, if you can find just a few miles of track, that would be in my opion this would be best. It seems to me that most riders don't want ride for hours expsically not Momama and little Johnny. As I see it 4 miles of track at 10 miles an hour may be cheaper that 10 or 20 that you have to keep up to higher speed in order not to bored people to death.

3rd I belive thinking small equipment wise may be better than getting in to large locomotives and equipment. A little 0-4-0 has a lot of advantages to working on it compared to that 2-8-0 and several flat cars may ride a little rougher and not look like a train but still they are cheaper than a bunch of heavey weight air conditioned cars.

4th Location is nice, but I think it is more of expecting your ridership and being practical about where you are. Don't exspect 100,000 riders the first year when your 2 hours from a major interstate. Cass Senic Railroad State Park gets 70,000 riders a year and they are practically in the middle of nowhere. Now they do have more to offere than your average 0-4-0 wondering though a corn field but they still made it in the middle of no where. If your area is only good for about 10,000 riders a year plan on selling that many tickets or less and remeber this while your investing in equipment. Also remember that ridership the first year isn't a solid indicator, I know one railroad that had 1500 people on opening day by labor day that same year they had 2.

That's just some of the vairbles I thought about, I don't know anything about marketing or other stuff, and there is a world of things I don't know about. But as I see it keep it small and simple. And if it doesn't go (you got to plan for this) just make sure every thing is paid up and when you shut the doors you can think of it this way, You gave a lot of people a chance to do something that they might not have,you hopefully had fun doing it and learned something, and you might have saved some pieces of equipment or gotten some use out of them that they other wise wouldn't have seen.

Or that's just how I see it

Ben

btrue@vt.edu