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Privatization of Steam Restoration?
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45650		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  PRR8063 [ Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Privatization of Steam Restoration?
Over the last year, I have noticed that last few "big" restoration projects have been taken on by private consultants compared to friends groups/shop contracts.

Has this always been the case and I've just been oblivious to it? Or is this a new trend?

For example FMW solutions tackling the 1361 project as a contractor compared to Colorado RR Museum hiring Strasburg to do contract work on Rio Grande 20.

Edit: was 611 restored "in house" at NCMT or was that just a location for contractors to work on it?
Author:  John D [ Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
611 was restored at Spencer (North Carolina Transportation Museum) by Steam Operations Corporation.
Author:  robertjohndavis [ Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
FWIW I think the hardest thing to do with any restoration is project management. There’s a load of evidence in the steam world and beyond that supremely talented restoration professionals are not always as proficient with the long term planning and budgeting. That’s where I see opportunity.

If you are a Strasburg or a Cumbres-like operation and have that talent in house, great. But when you are talking about new operators or museums without prior experience, that’s where a good management team is worth their price. It doesn’t negate the need for the top notch mechanic, but it does fill essential and often under-appreciated roles.
Author:  Rick Rowlands [ Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
One reason may be the lack of enough technical knowledge of steam locomotives by the locomotive owners to tackle the project, so the board decides to bring in an outside entity to handle it. Anymore it is getting harder to find people with real abilities to volunteer since most of the people with skills are in great demand in the workplace. So if the owner wants a locomotive restored, their only choice may be to bring in outside talent to do it.

Our dearly departed Eleanor P. once stated that the thing that is more important than the locomotive is the shop and the people to run the shop. In Altoona they have a roundhouse but it is a display building only. There is no shop there to support the restoration. Contractors can bring with them the capability to take parts to their home shops for work or set up temporary shop facilities as needed.

I was fortunate with the J&L 58 that I have been doing restoration/metalwork for years and had amassed quite a collection of tools and a bit of a shop. Even so, I had to sub out the boiler repairs, frame repairs and refurbishment of the drivers. Contractors play an important role in steam restoration projects. The days of restoring a Berkshire outside in an industrial park by a group of volunteers has probably come to an end (with the possible exception of the Minersville Miracle).
Author:  Kevin Gilliam [ Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
Private contractors have been around since the beginning and have probably laid hands on most of the operable steam engines around at some point or another. Unless you have a really competent and qualified "steam guy" as part of your group, you're probably going to need the help of a contractor at some point. Whether that is taking on the entire project from beginning to end, picking up where someone else left off, or just a specific technical task, run steam long enough and you'll end up dealing with one.

What may be happening though is that the contractors are getting more publicity these days with social media and such as opposed to staying behind the scenes and known only within the community.
Author:  murph [ Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
A nice addition to RYPN would be a contractors tab with paid advertisements, links to their pages, and some examples of past work and shop capabilities.
Author:  Dave [ Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
The Heritage Rail Alliance is your go-to for such information, and to have a nice chat with any of them you want to seek out. I'm from the old school of amateur morphed into professional and relied on other professionals to fill in holes in my qualifications with their expertise. We seem to have several very good and well qualified alliances of professionals out there now to consult and get dirty, or both...... I'm seeing the bar raised in terms of quality of work in ways we didn't see 30 years ago as a result. It's good for us to have such a wealth of resources at our disposal.
Author:  co614 [ Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
Good suggestion to go to Heritage Rail and check out the steam restoration specialists.

Fact is that there are only 5 contractors who have figured out how to make a full time living out of restoring someone's steam locomotive.

4 of the 5 have long term positive track records that are well earned over many years.

One of the 5 has been involved in numerous lawsuits and other disputes.

If you're considering hiring one of them do take the time to check out their references carefully.

Ross Rowland
Author:  Pegasuspinto [ Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
This is how I see it....

Most successful organizations have a team in place that is really good at raising cash. Raising even the multiple millions required to repair a steam engine isn't that big a deal, with the right team. If you think a million dollars is a 'ton of money', you're behind the times!

The rest of the groups are filled with mechanics, and fans. Some of them have well equipped shops and mechanical talent that manages miracles with little money. The rest lack miracles, money, and results.
Author:  JR May [ Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
Key with any volunteer organization is to know what you are good at. From experience, some are good at raising money, or bringing in money, but are terrible with managing a large project such as steam locomotive restoration. That same organization may be fine with maintenance, but when it comes to the big project, professional help is a requirement. Key is to know what you are good at, then let paid contractors fill in the gaps, a wee bit of knowledge that I wish I new 20 years ago.
Author:  sleepermonster [ Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
As the steam locomotives get older the repairs get more complicated, the rules get stricter and the testing digs deeper. One reason the old companies built new was because it was cheaper.

I own most of a 1944 vintage 0-6-0st. The first time it was restored in about 1990 it required half a set of crown stays and new fire tubes.

This time around the work included: new firebox foundation ring, new firebox backhead (aka doorplate), also lower outer firebox side sheets, firebox and smokebox tubeplates, smokebox, main copper steam delivery pipe, chimney, lower throat plate; a full set of both longitudinal and crown stays - and new fire tubes.

The foundation ring was cut by water jet from a single piece of steel slab and there was an awful lot of very skilled welding and forming.

Not a job for most enthusiast workshops!
Author:  Steamguy73 [ Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
Several of the locomotives that need contractors to restore them are locomotives that haven’t operated in several decades (like the 148 or 1361), or locomotives that haven’t operated since they were taken out of revenue service (like the 576 and soon to be 1504),

The contractors might also be used because the general condition of the locomotives in question might be an unknown, and several organizations might use them as a safety net in case there’s a part or several parts that need significant work.
Author:  QJdriver [ Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
Let's say you own the engine free and clear, and you and your buddies have all the skills in the world. Just the cost of setting up a proper locomotive repair shop is staggering --- rent or mortgage payments, tracklaying, digging a pit, utilities, tools, insurance, etc. If you can't afford to do all that, you end up in a parking lot with putty knives and paint brushes, spending most of your time pulling weeds. (At least I did.) Anything you don't have tools for, you end up farming out anyway. What I saved by not setting up shop has gone quite a ways toward paying pros to fix up my locomotive.
Author:  Jeff Taylor [ Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
As a point of fact. The Colorado Railroad Museum had Strasburg Railroad do the lion's share of the restoration work on Rio Grande Southern 20 because that's what the initial donation stipulated.

Now that doesn't mean CRRM could have handled the restoration inhouse either. CRRM doesn't have the facilities to handle such a large job. Most of our tooling is very small.

We use contractors to help get work done that we simply just can't do ourselves. 346 was also sent to Strasburg for repairs/rebuilding 15 years ago. SRC even built a new tender for 346. Currently we have the Durango and Silverton working on pistons and main rods for D&RGW 491. Why? None of us have worked on segmented rings before and our lathe isn't large enough to turn them. We also had Steve Butler bore out the cylinders. Again we don't have the tooling to do so ourselves.

Time, talent, and tooling are major factors into why you might use a contractor.
Author:  PRR8063 [ Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Privatization of Steam Restoration?
Jeff Taylor wrote:
As a point of fact. The Colorado Railroad Museum had Strasburg Railroad do the lion's share of the restoration work on Rio Grande Southern 20 because that's what the initial donation stipulated.

Now that doesn't mean CRRM could have handled the restoration inhouse either. CRRM doesn't have the facilities to handle such a large job. Most of our tooling is very small.

We use contractors to help get work done that we simply just can't do ourselves. 346 was also sent to Strasburg for repairs/rebuilding 15 years ago. SRC even built a new tender for 346. Currently we have the Durango and Silverton working on pistons and main rods for D&RGW 491. Why? None of us have worked on segmented rings before and our lathe isn't large enough to turn them. We also had Steve Butler bore out the cylinders. Again we don't have the tooling to do so ourselves.

Time, talent, and tooling are major factors into why you might use a contractor.


I was afraid that my post would be interpreted this way... I'm not looking at Strasburg as a "private contractor", but more of an established restoration shop.

By private contractor, I am referencing organizations such as FMW solutions who do not have a physical shop building and are not associated with a railroad line.

I.e. why did people organize these "private contractor restoration services" when there are facilities such as SRC (on the shop tour a few years back, the tour guide mentioned there are about 5-6? other shop facilities with SRC's capabilities)? Was there a need for more on-site restoration work rather than moving a locomotive?

I didn't want to flat out ask, but why FMW solutions for 1361 instead of SRC?

I figure that financials are a substantial factor in the decision, but what else does FMW offer above SRC? SRC restoration shops have been in the business for a long time and clearly have success with their own locomotives and other contract work, have they lost their touch? Are they too backlogged? Are they getting greedy and asking too much? Have they failed to keep up with the times? I noted that in the 1361 press conference, a 3D model was made of the boiler. Not sure if SRC provides that (more modern) service
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